Wormholes

Here is what I have gathered from this thread thus far:

1) Docking in wh space is about as well received as a sexually transmitted disease

2) Gimping lower class wormhole POS's isn't far behind

3) Not many care about contracts/markets in wh space

4) People seem interested in more details about "POS cities"

5) NO DOCKING

^^ well i have no problem with docking...

lol i would rather dock than just sit behind a pos shield that causes my frame rate chug like crap. But i also accepts that scouts should be able to see that i am online and what ship i have in the docking bay.

Before we go well into nerfing low end w-space on "your" experience can you get some actual figures from CCP about low class w-space? And how many towers get destroyed in C1-4 compared to C5/C6 and the use of capitals linked to that data?

I see so many other people "with" experience refute your claims that C1-4 need nerfing, why are you so unwilling to listen and so steadfast that you will put your views forward to them instead? I would also ask that you make the people that have alledgedly said to you that pos sizes need to be lowered in low class holes come and say it publicly and say why they think they should be lowered, as it stands you seem to be the only person to have the opinion that they need to be nerfed.

Every time you have commented back about the POS size nerf in low end w-space you have come back with your reasoning regarding C1's and their mass limitations. I actually agree that C1's need a shakeup, but i definitely do not think you need to nerf the people that have gone to significant effort to protect their part of space in a C2,3 or 4.

You pointed out the reasoning that a small group of people can't go in and take a WH with a large well set up tower. I would like to say i doubt that it would even help them if you changed them to small towers as there is still so many empty low class w-space systems that are completely empty that a small group of people could move into without needing to fire one shot of ammo to get. There is very much still opportunities for people new to go and get themselves a piece of space to try out wormhole life.

But there is the problem now that if you put your views forward that POS's should be nerfed that it would be unattainable to expect us to stay in a C1-4 and expect to have to defend our towers consistently against anyone that wants to roam through and get some fun. There is plenty of people in my view that already have the organisation and numbers to go evict people in a large well built pos, why make it so that 3 people can easily come and knock your tower into reinforce every night while you sleep with little effort on their part?

Also if someones has gone to the great expense of building a couple of cap ships in their hole on the limited income you can get in a low end wormhole why should they not be able to? Should you not say in fairness to what you want in low class holes that caps ships amounts should be limited in a C5 or C6 hole? seems to be the same argument to me that like you said you challenge people to go evict AHARM from your hole.

Why is it ok for you to fortify your w-space to that extent that you are not vulnerable to a small group wanting to take your w-space?

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5545

http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8269

we fly with slave too but none of us ask for clone changing.

stick with what you have, wspace is eve in hard mode

Aaaaaaaaaaaand we have a winner!!!!!!!!!

TwoStep,

Do you know what is the end game in w-space after you get iskies and do all the pve content out there?

Yes, it's pvp, it's hardest pvp in the game since to get one encounter you have to scan/watch/wait cloaked for HOURS sometimes for DAYS.

With no local obtaining info about whether system is active is hard enough: residents might be cloaked , be in hs or other hole. One of few valuable tools is directional scanner and people afking in poses so you can dscan pos and check whether someone is active or not. With dockable poses you decrease the time we could spot people in systems for about 90% thus reducing possible pvp encounters by half or more (since most wh corporations don't have many active members it's hard enough to spot them).

Example: now person preparing to do pi or gassing first sits @ pos for x-xx minutes doing remote PI, then refits to industrial and then flies to planet and back, then sits at pos maybe refitting to other ship or just being afk etc etc. With docking we firstly aren't able to see that anyone is active in that system (no ships on dscan, just poses), then undocking warping to planets and docking takes what 1-2min per planet max? So instead of seeing and preparing gank for that person for 1-2hours you decrease possible intel time to 5-10mins. How that could help increase very low number of pvp encounters in w-space i don't know.

2nd thing:
bhaalgorn can neut 300cap/s while legion = 150cap/s so I don't really understand problem with caps in lower classes. Regarding deathstar poses: we have been given great tool recently - tier3 bc that can be used effectively in C1 pos bash with logi support - so exactly where battleships cannot enter.

Also having carriers in lower classes =/= knowledge how to use it (people almost never use caps in lower classes, if any they use it to farm sleepers lol) - which is great. It brought me many exciting cap kills and situations when I had to gtfo but could kill a carrier with a few more people in support in c4- w-space. People tend to overestimate capital role in lower class wormholes since they are not mobile and can be neuted by few above mentioned bhaals/legions.

3rd thing:
Anchorable poses anywhere in space.

I cannot really see any major advantage of that while seeing many disadvantages and unintended consequences:
Bookmarks overload since now every major corporation in w-space and 0.0 starts collecting thousands of bm of scanned poses to have better intel when they encounter that system (w-system or null) again.

Multiply number of corporations (no alliance bm yet) x number of systems with poses x average number of poses (x average requests for that bm in database), that's tens of millions of additional bookmarks that going to push pressure on database and eve performance now handled mostly in out-of-eve tracking applications. This also deepens information inbalance between larger and smaller corps and thus gimps smaller corps further in w-space.

One of the most beautiful thing about w-space is that many many small corps can live there independently. Variety is interesting and guarantee fresh experiences every day especially if you look for pvp. New pos changes and gimping poses / caps in lower classes hinders that beauty. It makes looking for pvping (end goal in w-space) even longer and tougher then what currently experienced.

Finding a good kill is already a full time-job with your fingers hurting from clicks (lots of scanning) . If spending hours bring even less potential ganks I can foresee pvp folks in lower classes logging even rarer than currently and playing other games. Thus w-space getting even less active pvp-wise and being focused more towards few large alliances; godfather dull politics it brings and w-space focused even more towards isk-farm than currently is.



What I find alarming TwoStep is that you don't propose viable solutions that go with proposed changes:
- docking? why not but let the ship be visible inside the station with who's piloting it and also on dscan
- anchoring anywhere in space? might be viable if poses can be scanned in efficient way i.e. one combat probe will give you 100% scan results on all poses within its scan range

Pvpers are the best folks that you can keep in wspace since they provide risk/reward content and keep pvers there on their toes. Do not destroy that beatiful thing in w-space and prove me that I'm wrong and I haven't wasted my 6 votes on you.

Okay, removing force fields and allowing docking/mooring.

When you dock, you are no longer in that same location as the station's exterior object. Your user session has changed locations (session change), like a "dungeon" or "instance" in some other game; you just still share the same communication channels (ie: Local). Dscan will not work because you are not in the system anymore. Glancing at an overview will not work because you're not on-grid with the exterior of the station anymore. You have entered a single-player instance.

(Something like this is important for a place like Jita and useful in Hisec/Lowsec in general because they are Empire-controlled and someone else is providing "protection". It's not needed, or desired, in w-space because of the drawbacks, and probably shouldn't be in Nullsec either, though that's up to people who actually live there)

Right now, with a POS and its force field, you stay in the same system. You stay on grid. Tools that require those characteristics will continue to work. The force fields provide a measure of protection similar to, though not as complete as, being removed from the grid and placed into a single-player station instance.

My main question is, how is "mooring" different than "docking"? Are you still removed from the multi-player environment and placed into a single-player environment? If so, how can you hope to have a responsive dscan, and how could others dscan you? How can you hope to have a working overview, and how could others see you on-grid? Adding these capabilities would be an incredibly ugly hack job, add a fair bit of latency, and probably wouldn't be done. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more work to do this than to clean up and tighten the code for station services.


Instead of approaching it from the angle of "POSes are broken, lets make them like Stations", approach it from a different angle: "Station services are geared for only single-player environments, lets fix them and make them location-independent."

All services that are offered at a POS are multi-player-capable, obviously: ship fittings, hangar access, industry, etc. Even if some of them are kludgy, the support is there and can be refined further.

Services currently offered in stations could also be multi-player-capable, if their reliance on the station environment were removed. You don't need a single-player station environment to have market access. You don't need a single-player station environment to have a medical bay, or repairs, or access to storage, or whatever. Clean up the code so that there is no more reliance on session changes to clean up any left-overs.

After this, being in a station would effectively place you in an environment where you are within range of every station service provider. In space, you would right-click the tower to "Access Services".

Add new anchorable modules: Personal Hangar Array, Personal Ship Maintenance Array. In space, these can be destroyed and TONS of goodies might drop. These would become massive loot pinatas in w-space. In stations, these exist behind the scenes.

Add a Medical Bay module that provides some clone services, or that just allows implants to be removed once per 24 hours. Or just build this into the tower, along with market and contract service providers.

If station services were modified to work in generic locations, regardless of single-player station instances or multi-player POSes, then CCP would only need to maintain one branch of code for station services. Dscan and Overview would continue to be separate from station services, and would be available depending on your location.

At this point, the only reasons to dock up would be to be completely 100% safe and hide from others, and to play space barbie with yourself.


The last question then is how to protect people at a new-POS without a force field, or the concepts a force field represents? I'm starting to see more and more benefits to force fields the more I think about it, even if they're an ugly hack right now.


Is CCP determined to remove force fields, or would they be willing to modify them so they are not implemented as ugly hacks? Force fields and POSes provide something different, something unique. They offer a different style of game-play than what stations provide. It would be a shame to lose that, and move closer to homogenization.

i lol'd all over myself when I read the cloaky pos bit of that last post

He really has lost it.

How is it a good idea? The very first time someone opens up into you they will d-scan, if they don't find the pos on d-scan then they will drop probes at which point they will find your POS. After that they will have the information in whatever tool they use for mapping, be it siggy, wormnav and many other intel tools. So we are talking about a feature that needs to be coded and implemented and that will be helpful in a handful of scenarios / situations. Seems like completely useless feature.