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Why Off Grid booster nerf won't happen (ever) or won't be what you think

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#181 - 2012-08-15 18:13:24 UTC
Quote:
Nice job just pulling things out of your ass and assuming things.

Fighting outnumbered isn't easy, without OGBs it will be damn near impossible.

And I don't care about my ego at all, I don't know where you are getting these random accusations. And I never brag to anybody about how l33t I am or how awesome I am at PvP. I don't like it if somebody doesn't post on their main, but that is nothing like that.


If you can't come up with a logical argument and instead resort to making things up and insulting then I can't take you seriously.


What else could I get from the fact that you feel entitled to winning many vs one fights? Winning a many-person-vs-one fight is damn near impossible because you're fighting multiple other people who are very likely competent in PVP. Without boosters you could simply look for fights that are less "Nigh impossible", but no...you specifically want to go into fights where it's you against 2-3+ others and win. Why is that?

Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.

There is only one reason why the above isn't acceptable to you. Your opponents would actually get to see your advantage. The killboard would show your advantage.

Moreover, you only need one boosting character for a fleet of virtually any size. It's dumb to say that OGBs are a boost to small gangs when it's far easier for a blob to have boosts.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-08-15 18:15:25 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
You can't counter my arguments on the forums so you try to slander me.

This is so funny. LolLolLolLol


The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Diesel47 wrote:
And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.


Nice ninja edits.

Is that the best you could find of your "truth"? lol.

Nice try, not really.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-08-15 18:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Kahega Amielden wrote:


What else could I get from the fact that you feel entitled to winning many vs one fights? Winning a many-person-vs-one fight is damn near impossible because you're fighting multiple other people who are very likely competent in PVP. Without boosters you could simply look for fights that are less "Nigh impossible", but no...you specifically want to go into fights where it's you against 2-3+ others and win. Why is that?

Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.

There is only one reason why the above isn't acceptable to you. Your opponents would actually get to see your advantage. The killboard would show your advantage.

Moreover, you only need one boosting character for a fleet of virtually any size. It's dumb to say that OGBs are a boost to small gangs when it's far easier for a blob to have boosts.


Assuming more things again.

Go look at my KB, its nothing amazing. I honestly could care less if they removed KBs from the game. The only thing I use it for is to check if somebody is posting on their main or not.


Why do I like to fight more people? It's not because "I like to pad my KB" and "brag about being l33t to my friends", its because It is fun.

I like the rush of adrenaline I get when I play that way. Why don't I just faction fit everything? Because I can't afford to PLEX everytime I make a mistake and die, and I don't have enough RL time to grind level4s all day.

And I don't want to be able to always win outnumbered. Just the fact that we can be competitive vs a larger group because we came prepared and planned ahead makes me happy.

Stop making things up and actually make a meaningful post.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#184 - 2012-08-15 18:21:25 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Moreover, you only need one boosting character for a fleet of virtually any size. It's dumb to say that OGBs are a boost to small gangs when it's far easier for a blob to have boosts.


Having ganglinks gives your small gang more of a margin between being overwhelmed and holding a strategic position, even with both sides running links it still gives you a broader field to play in. It won't make up for lack of skill or negate the advantage of having a bigger, better gunned fleet, but it does give a smaller fleet, especially one pushing their skillset to the limits, more of a chance of making a good account of themselves against a bigger foe.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-08-15 18:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Kahega Amielden wrote:


Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.


This is the typical behaviour of the OGB user in lowsec areas. Pretend to be prey, then proceed to demolish the unfortunate dudes who couldn't have possibly known that he's tanking about twice as much as he should while moving 50% faster.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#186 - 2012-08-15 18:24:44 UTC
Quote:
Why do I like to fight more people? It's not because "I like to pad my KB" and "brag about being l33t to my friends", its because It is fun.


Then why not fly bigger or more expensive ships against lesser ships?
Quote:

I like the rush of adrenaline I get when I play that way. Why don't I just faction fit everything? Because I can't afford to PLEX everytime I make a mistake and die, and I don't have enough RL time to grind level4s all day.


You pay $15 extra per month or ~500 million ISK, as well as the cost of the booster hull, to have that OGB alt. From a cost perspective that's no advantage. The only advantage to a booster alt is that while a more expensive ship or expensive fittings would show your advantage, whereas having an OGB does not.

Quote:
Having ganglinks gives your small gang more of a margin between being overwhelmed and holding a strategic position, even with both sides running links it still gives you a broader field to play in. It won't make up for lack of skill or negate the advantage of having a bigger, better gunned fleet, but it does give a smaller fleet, especially one pushing their skillset to the limits, more of a chance of making a good account of themselves against a bigger foe.


Example? How does everyone on the field having 30% more shield HP, or more velocity, or longer point range, tip the scales in favor of a small gang?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-08-15 18:25:31 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:


Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.


This is the typical behaviour of the OGB user in lowsec areas. Pretend to be prey, then proceed to demolish the unfortunate dudes who couldn't have possibly known that he's tanking about twice as much as he should while moving 50% faster.


Maybe thats how it works in RvB joke pvp.

Even if it were true. If the enemies had a brain and a pair of eyes they can determine what two maelstroms on a gate are up to, or what 5 nanodrakes 60kms out of a gate are up to.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#188 - 2012-08-15 18:27:32 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:


Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.


This is the typical behaviour of the OGB user in lowsec areas. Pretend to be prey, then proceed to demolish the unfortunate dudes who couldn't have possibly known that he's tanking about twice as much as he should while moving 50% faster.


If your looking for a fair fight your in the wrong game... whats next nerf cynos?

Very few people use ganglinks to get an even bigger advantage over weaker prey anyhow, not to say no one does it, but most people use ganglinks to compliment their fleet capabilities or to give them a chance against harder foes.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#189 - 2012-08-15 18:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Maybe thats how it works in RvB joke pvp.


The person who won't PVP without having his ship boosted out the ass is lambasting others for "joke PVP".

You're only helping my point about your inflated ego.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-08-15 18:29:42 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Even if it were true.


The majority of the "leet solo pvp" videos are just that. Often with pirate implants too.

Lots of people try to emulate that.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-08-15 18:31:48 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:


You pay $15 extra per month or ~500 million ISK, as well as the cost of the booster hull, to have that OGB alt. From a cost perspective that's no advantage. The only advantage to a booster alt is that while a more expensive ship or expensive fittings would show your advantage, whereas having an OGB does not.



Do you even PvP dude? If I faction fit every ship I flew, then when I jump into a 0.0 camp and just get blobbed with no hope of survival... I'd be grinding level4s 90% of the time while trying to pvp 10% of the time.

That is very anti-fun.

Kahega Amielden wrote:
Example? How does everyone on the field having 30% more shield HP, or more velocity, or longer point range, tip the scales in favor of a small gang?


Because if OGBs are removed and the small gang doesn't have the extra 30% everything, they will just get raped.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#192 - 2012-08-15 18:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Do you even PvP dude? If I faction fit every ship I flew, then when I jump into a 0.0 camp and just get blobbed with no hope of survival... I'd be grinding level4s 90% of the time while trying to pvp 10% of the time.

That is very anti-fun.


If you faction-fit your ship to boost it as much as a booster alt does, sure. Faction equipment gives you small boosts for lots of ISK because the ability to boost your capabilities while hiding it from your enemy is an extremely powerful advantage. That's why OGB is so broken.

You haven't answered my question as to why you don't just fly slightly shinier ships. Assault frigates are not expensive and you can fight outnumbered against t1 frigs or destroyers all day and still have a chance at winning. Why don't you just engage small groups of cheaper ships? Faction equipment isn't required.


Quote:
Because if OGBs are removed and the small gang doesn't have the extra 30% everything, they will just get raped.


As will they when the blob also has 30% extra everything, as they will even harder when only the blob has 30% extra everything. I fail to see your point, other than that off grid boosts provide unfair bonuses which you've completely failed to justify other than "they let me engage more powerful things because they make my ship better".
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#193 - 2012-08-15 18:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
[quote=Kahega Amielden]
Quote:

Example? How does everyone on the field having 30% more shield HP, or more velocity, or longer point range, tip the scales in favor of a small gang?



It gives you a bigger margin to play with - even when both sides are using it - which gives more room for mistakes to be made, more room for manouverability, etc. i.e. if your both pointing to 50km instead of 25km that means you can sit well outside the close range high damage turret ships and instead of getting instantly melted you can probe for weaknesses and try to pick stuff off, etc. - or atleast if you can't, your not forced into a close range commitment you never had any chance of winning and have a chance to GTFO and fight another day.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#194 - 2012-08-15 18:38:39 UTC
Cearain wrote:

No you haven't. I looked at your killboard and the links you provided. I notice very few kills outside of ammamake. Afraid to leave the alt boosters behind?


So I link kills in Genesis and Metropolis and you tell me I never leave Amamake. Lol

Quote:

Very nice kills against eve university BTW. Whats that again? Oh yeah, thats the alliance where people who are new to eve can learn basic mechanics isn't it?


The thing you should have noticed there was that we were fighting outnumbered and outshipped. We also didn't have links. ;-)

Quote:

Again I am not saying I am the best at pvp. However, there is nothing in either of our killboards that would suggest you somehow outclass me in pvp. So your claim that I am just doing it wrong is going to fly unless you get more specific.

And no I didn't ship up for the fights I have had against boosted frigates. I just jump in the plex in whatever ship I happen to be in at the time. Roll I actually go roaming system to system since I don't rely on alt boosters in a pos to be an iwin button.


FYI there aren't alt boosters on in the POS by the time I log on. But hey, whatever floats your boat there. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#195 - 2012-08-15 18:39:45 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.


The problem with fighting outnumbered will be that they will outnumber you, outship you, and have links where you don't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#196 - 2012-08-15 18:40:23 UTC
Quote:
It gives you a bigger margin to play with - even when both sides are using it - which gives more room for mistakes to be made, more room for manouverability, etc. i.e. if your both pointing to 50km instead of 25km that means you can sit well outside the close range high damage turret ships and instead of getting instantly melted you can probe for weaknesses and try to pick stuff off, etc.


You seem to be talking about the relative benefits of Loki speed/point range boosts when the small gang consists of nanoships and the blob consists of slow, close-range ships. The advantage to the small gang in your example comes from the fact that ships that take full advantage out of kiting close range high damage ships and pointing from far away happen to benefit most from a certain type of boost.

Now imagine the same situation except everyone has Tengu boosts. The nanogang still goes down fast if they get tackled or become trackable, and the 30% extra shield HP doesn't change that...But any individual ships that get separated from the group take longer to kill, and they have more time to fill weak points. In the same situation, Tengu boosts would advantage the blob far more than the small gang.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#197 - 2012-08-15 18:41:57 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Moreover, you only need one boosting character for a fleet of virtually any size. It's dumb to say that OGBs are a boost to small gangs when it's far easier for a blob to have boosts.


This is you not understanding gang bonus mechanics.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#198 - 2012-08-15 18:43:25 UTC
Rroff wrote:

Very few people use ganglinks to get an even bigger advantage over weaker prey anyhow, not to say no one does it, but most people use ganglinks to compliment their fleet capabilities or to give them a chance against harder foes.


Or to equalize the field against all the other people who use links.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#199 - 2012-08-15 18:43:26 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:


You seem to be talking about the relative benefits of Loki speed/point range boosts when the small gang consists of nanoships and the blob consists of slow, close-range ships. The advantage to the small gang in your example comes from the fact that ships that take full advantage out of kiting close range high damage ships and pointing from far away happen to benefit most from a certain type of boost.

Now imagine the same situation except everyone has Tengu boosts. The nanogang still goes down fast if they get tackled or become trackable, and the 30% extra shield HP doesn't change that...But any individual ships that get separated from the group take longer to kill, and they have more time to fill weak points. In the same situation, Tengu boosts would advantage the blob far more than the small gang.


I'm talking about one example of many possible ones and it doesn't always work out in your favor, but in the position of smaller fleet V blob you'd be making use of the links that gave you the most chances to control range and get out if your overwhelmed.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#200 - 2012-08-15 18:45:14 UTC
Rroff wrote:

I'm talking about one example of many possible ones and it doesn't always work out in your favor, but in the position of smaller fleet V blob you'd be making use of the links that gave you the most chances to control range and get out if your overwhelmed.


I don't know why you bother arguing with Kahega. He's so passionate about gang links that he's willing to AWOX his own gang links.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.