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Off grid boosting alts trying to evade the nerfbat
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Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-08-15 17:04:58 UTC
Cant wait for mining boosters to be on grid. Goodbye capital industrial ships...
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#62 - 2012-08-15 17:07:53 UTC
I have to ask, as a noob, but how is it balanced to allow a 10 man fleet be as powerful as a 30 man fleet?

I'm not trying to promote blobs, but realistically if you're outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 "Balance" would mean you're a 2 or 3 to 1 underdog. Only extremely creative FCing and piloting on your part, or bad FCing and piloting on your enemies part, should counter the odds, no?

Not trolling. Genuinely interested in the views of experienced players.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-08-15 17:08:53 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

If you actually went to lowsec and did FW where a good portion of kills are solo kills, you'll quickly discover that there are many people with an off grid boosting alt that you cannot win against unless you bring your own off grid boosting alt.

How do people deal with that?

- They stop flying solo and start flying in gangs.
- They start avoiding fights with pilots they know have an off grid booster alt.
- They get their own off grid booster alt just to stay on the same level.
- They stop pvp'ing in disgust.

This is how off grid boosters are killing real small scale pvp.


So what, removing OGBs won't solve anything.

If that guy loses his OGB he will just get a falcon alt, or a neutral RR alt, or just bait you into getting blobbed.

How do you deal with a falcon if you are solo and one appears and permajams you? You don't.

The problem here isn't OGBs, its the fact that people can buy alts to help them and that will never change... OGB nerf or not, people who appear "solo" will always trick you into traps.

True solo pvp is hard, it was never meant to be easy. Removing OGBs won't make it any easier for you.




And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.

If OGBs are removed then this style of small gang pvp is also doomed. That is what I'm worried about.


Thien Long wrote:



you cant be serious right? please ok? my point in this problem is if they want a fleet bonus they have to have that ship present with the fleet, so you or anyone decide to kill it atleast u can, as of right now you dont have that option.


Another uninformed post. You are just proving my point that all these arguments are made by people that have no clue what they are saying.

OGBs ARE killable, they can be scanned down and killed. That is a VERY viable option and it happens more than you think.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-08-15 17:10:15 UTC
Fiachra Shine wrote:
I have to ask, as a noob, but how is it balanced to allow a 10 man fleet be as powerful as a 30 man fleet?
it isn't, that's why the most accomplished single player PVPers like Garmon loudly advocate removal of off grid boosters and npc corp members think its a great feature hth
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2012-08-15 17:10:47 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

1st argument: "If off grid boosting is no longer possible, then small gangs won't have gang links anymore."

No ****, they were designed to be that way. Bringing a fully fledged fleet booster only makes sense for gangs of a certain size.

Besides stating the obvious, command ships and battlcruisers can easily fit a gang link while maintaing good combat strength. You'll just have to make some choices.


It would be more accurate to say that only blobs would have gang links. This is a problem for small gang PVP.

Quote:

2nd argument: "Removing off grid boosting will hurt solo and small gang pvp."

The existence of off grid boosting divides the playing field into two groups: those who have an off grid booster and those who don't. The first group is massively advantaged. This is not good for the health of solo and small gang PvP.

Removing the advantage will level the playing field and allow more players to compete on even ground (and that's precisely what some of these off grid boosting alts are afraid of).

Addendum: a popular variation of this argument is "gang links let us fight the blob". While gang links are a force multiplier, it goes both ways: a gang without an off grid booster is heavily disadvantaged when facing an equally sized gang with such a booster.


It won't hurt small gang PVP, but it will hurt a small gang's ability to engage the blob. This is a problem worth fixing before bringing gang links on grid.

Quote:

4th argument: "Off grid boosting is not wrong per se"

Off grid boosters directly influence the outcome of a battle without ever being present on grid. Every other ship in EVE must be present on grid to do the same (the one exception are fighters, but they can be shot down). Off grid boosting is clearly outside of the normal combat paradigm.


Lots of things directly influence the outcome of a battle - including covops scouts that are never on grid.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Thien Long
Russian Black Horse
#66 - 2012-08-15 17:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Thien Long
Diesel47 wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

If you actually went to lowsec and did FW where a good portion of kills are solo kills, you'll quickly discover that there are many people with an off grid boosting alt that you cannot win against unless you bring your own off grid boosting alt.

How do people deal with that?

- They stop flying solo and start flying in gangs.
- They start avoiding fights with pilots they know have an off grid booster alt.
- They get their own off grid booster alt just to stay on the same level.
- They stop pvp'ing in disgust.

This is how off grid boosters are killing real small scale pvp.


So what, removing OGBs won't solve anything.

If that guy loses his OGB he will just get a falcon alt, or a neutral RR alt, or just bait you into getting blobbed.

How do you deal with a falcon if you are solo and one appears and permajams you? You don't.

The problem here isn't OGBs, its the fact that people can buy alts to help them and that will never change... OGB nerf or not, people who appear "solo" will always trick you into traps.

True solo pvp is hard, it was never meant to be easy. Removing OGBs won't make it any easier for you.




And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.

If OGBs are removed then this style of small gang pvp is also doomed. That is what I'm worried about.


Thien Long wrote:



you cant be serious right? please ok? my point in this problem is if they want a fleet bonus they have to have that ship present with the fleet, so you or anyone decide to kill it atleast u can, as of right now you dont have that option.


Another uninformed post. You are just proving my point that all these arguments are made by people that have no clue what they are saying.

OGBs ARE killable, they can be scanned down and killed. That is a VERY viable option and it happens more than you think.



scan down? lol ur joking? what IF hes in the pos can you do anything? ur a pvper as u seem you are, but ur asking me to scan it down while im getting my ass beat up? do u even know what ur talking about? like the booster alt just stand there for you to scan it down and kill it.

i dont ask for it to be remove, im asking CCP to fix it that fleet only get bonus if the booster at the same position with the fleet.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-08-15 17:16:08 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
You're over dramatizing. I played before OGB became popular and gangboosting was just doing fine back then. You actually had to make some choices rather than bringing a 6 ganglink monster that does everything at virtually no risk.


Just because YOU did something, sometime ago doesn't mean the game should change because YOU think it should.

There are more players other than YOU.


And you are showing another reason why I don't take you guys seriously, thinking that a 6 link ganglink T3 can boost with no risk just shows how little you actually know.

A 6 link booster "monster" will be a very hard fit and it will have literally no way to become harder to probe. Even a novice prober can find this guy in seconds and have interceptors flying in to kill him. OGBs are expensive and losing them is huge blow, using them is never "risk free" unless you are not smart enough to counter them.

I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2012-08-15 17:16:20 UTC
ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin wrote:
Make the current CS bonus a mod bonus to the gang-link that changes depending on what ship it is on.

Gang-Links: (racial aligned)
2% bonus on all tech 1 ships, except BCs
3% bonus on all tech 2 or 3 ships, or tech 1 BCs
5% bonus on all tech 2 BC hulls.

Fitting requirements should be sufficient enough to gimp any offensive capabilty.
…interesting…

Just to keep them special, though, what would happen if you gave all BCs a fitting bonus to Command Processors? With that suggestion, all ships can fit the actual links, but BCs will always be able to fit more.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#69 - 2012-08-15 17:19:55 UTC
As always in this type of message, OP ignore arguments he can't deny. Fleet boosting is BORING, BO-RING, it's an alt's work. By putting it on grid we just have one more ship to protect that can't do anything else than tank the focus that will irremediably fall on it. If I remember well, I heard the terms "flying brick".

Fleet boosting is an investment that costs money and time to train... Like anything else. The statment "as long as it exist, it is a disavantage if you don't have it" doesn't mean anything. It's like saying "nerf T2 ! because as long as they exist if you don't have them you are penalized"...

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-08-15 17:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cadfael Maelgwyn
Diesel47 wrote:
I disagree with you, and you are stupid and lazy.

Fixed your post.

Altrue wrote:
Fleet boosting is BORING, BO-RING, it's an alt's work.

Of course it is, the way it is right now.

Nobody's saying the gang boost system is perfect except for the off-grid part.

There are many things that need to be altered before boosting can be forced on-grid.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#71 - 2012-08-15 17:21:18 UTC
I totally agree, OP.

/Signed

10/10

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Jaangel
BLAMBER
#72 - 2012-08-15 17:28:25 UTC
Off grid boosting is not an issue. (Well only an issues in CCP's head)

The issues is T3 boosters are better and dedicated command ships.

People seem to look at issues in eve from the wrong point of view.

Ive been in many a fleet having to bounce fleet boosters because there being scanned down.

Any arguments in either direction (on or off grid) are fundamentally floored due to the above reason and therefore there is no good reason to discuss them as they are not the issue.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#73 - 2012-08-15 17:29:18 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
You're over dramatizing. I played before OGB became popular and gangboosting was just doing fine back then. You actually had to make some choices rather than bringing a 6 ganglink monster that does everything at virtually no risk.


Just because YOU did something, sometime ago doesn't mean the game should change because YOU think it should.

There are more players other than YOU.


And you are showing another reason why I don't take you guys seriously, thinking that a 6 link ganglink T3 can boost with no risk just shows how little you actually know.

A 6 link booster "monster" will be a very hard fit and it will have literally no way to become harder to probe. Even a novice prober can find this guy in seconds and have interceptors flying in to kill him. OGBs are expensive and losing them is huge blow, using them is never "risk free" unless you are not smart enough to counter them.

I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.


What if said monster booster is in NPC corp and in Hi sec boosting for a war decking corp? How is it then fair? Should he be flagged red as he is helping the fleet
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-08-15 17:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Jaangel wrote:
Off grid boosting is not an issue. (Well only an issues in CCP's head)

The issues is T3 boosters are better and dedicated command ships.

People seem to look at issues in eve from the wrong point of view.

Ive been in many a fleet having to bounce fleet boosters because there being scanned down.

Any arguments in either direction (on or off grid) are fundamentally floored due to the above reason and therefore there is no good reason to discuss them as they are not the issue.



Thats why I say T3s should only be able to boost 5-6 pilots or so.

So huge fleets are forced to use command ships, and the small gangs that want to try to fight blobs still can do so.


Thien Long wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

If you actually went to lowsec and did FW where a good portion of kills are solo kills, you'll quickly discover that there are many people with an off grid boosting alt that you cannot win against unless you bring your own off grid boosting alt.

How do people deal with that?

- They stop flying solo and start flying in gangs.
- They start avoiding fights with pilots they know have an off grid booster alt.
- They get their own off grid booster alt just to stay on the same level.
- They stop pvp'ing in disgust.

This is how off grid boosters are killing real small scale pvp.


So what, removing OGBs won't solve anything.

If that guy loses his OGB he will just get a falcon alt, or a neutral RR alt, or just bait you into getting blobbed.

How do you deal with a falcon if you are solo and one appears and permajams you? You don't.

The problem here isn't OGBs, its the fact that people can buy alts to help them and that will never change... OGB nerf or not, people who appear "solo" will always trick you into traps.

True solo pvp is hard, it was never meant to be easy. Removing OGBs won't make it any easier for you.




And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.

If OGBs are removed then this style of small gang pvp is also doomed. That is what I'm worried about.


Thien Long wrote:



you cant be serious right? please ok? my point in this problem is if they want a fleet bonus they have to have that ship present with the fleet, so you or anyone decide to kill it atleast u can, as of right now you dont have that option.


Another uninformed post. You are just proving my point that all these arguments are made by people that have no clue what they are saying.

OGBs ARE killable, they can be scanned down and killed. That is a VERY viable option and it happens more than you think.



scan down? lol ur joking? what IF hes in the pos can you do anything? ur a pvper as u seem you are, but ur asking me to scan it down while im getting my ass beat up? do u even know what ur talking about? like the booster alt just stand there for you to scan it down and kill it.

i dont ask for it to be remove, im asking CCP to fix it that fleet only get bonus if the booster at the same position with the fleet.


If you want me to take you serious then post with your main, if this is your main then LMFAO.

But anyways. I made a long thread on OGBs and I said that boosting from POSes shouldn't be allowed. I think that is OP aswell. But I don't think just removing OGBs is the solution either. If you are curious to what I think, go look up my thread and read it in detail. I make many posts over many pages and I go into exactly what I think the right course of action is for balancing OGBs.


If you are fighting somebody who has an OGB and you basically solo, then you are asking to get your ass kicked.
Thats the same as somebody who is using any type of alt, they will have a big advantage over your solo ass.

If you are apart of a gang or fleet, then you can get somebody that specializes in probing to find the OGB and kill it. OGB losses are big deals, they all cost atleast half a bil... each.

If you think that they will just "warp off when they see probes" first you need to realize that the person who is constantly watching D-scan on his alt will probably have terrible piloting on his main that is fighting, unless he has two heads and 4 hands that is no problem.

And just incase you didn't know.. an OGB can't boost if it is warping.

And if you get close enough to scan somebody and their OGB has to warp off or die...(ASSUMING they are even watching Dscan) Then you have a window of time to either

1. Catch their kiting fits with your own fast ships because they aren't getting skirmish bonuses anymore...

or

2. break their active tank that is now weak because it is not getting siege/armor warefare bonuses.

So what I'm saying is this is all part of the game, you need to learn how to fight against your enemies and how to counter their tactics with your own plans. Instead of whining for CCP to nerf things you don't know how to counter, you should spend time actually thinking on how you can counter them.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-08-15 17:30:56 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.


What if said monster booster is in NPC corp and in Hi sec boosting for a war decking corp? How is it then fair? Should he be flagged red as he is helping the fleet


Hi-sec PvP...

lol.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-08-15 17:31:25 UTC
"Really boosting as a whole needs to be looked at. Not just the proximity. Allow the fleet to have multiple boosters so long as they're not the same link. Furthermore general hud info should only display the class and race of ship not the specific ship its self without a specialized mod. Command ships with this could broadcast this info to the rest of their fleet/squad, and provide other useful info. Adds another layer of gameplay/fitting. "

Quoting myself here.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#77 - 2012-08-15 17:34:00 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.


What if said monster booster is in NPC corp and in Hi sec boosting for a war decking corp? How is it then fair? Should he be flagged red as he is helping the fleet


Hi-sec PvP...

lol.


I dont do it but I can see this being abused there. So while we are talking about boosting it is worth bringing up.
ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-08-15 17:35:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin wrote:
Make the current CS bonus a mod bonus to the gang-link that changes depending on what ship it is on.

Gang-Links: (racial aligned)
2% bonus on all tech 1 ships, except BCs
3% bonus on all tech 2 or 3 ships, or tech 1 BCs
5% bonus on all tech 2 BC hulls.

Fitting requirements should be sufficient enough to gimp any offensive capabilty.
…interesting…

Just to keep them special, though, what would happen if you gave all BCs a fitting bonus to Command Processors? With that suggestion, all ships can fit the actual links, but BCs will always be able to fit more.



I think that could work well.

All ships can fit one Gang-Link; and only BC hulls get a bonus for Command Processors, so they can fit multiple links. The Command Processor gets the massive CPU req, and BCs get a reduction in that requirement.

And allow all tech 2 BCs fit 3 Gang-Links without Command Processors.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-08-15 17:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.


What if said monster booster is in NPC corp and in Hi sec boosting for a war decking corp? How is it then fair? Should he be flagged red as he is helping the fleet


Hi-sec PvP...

lol.


I dont do it but I can see this being abused there. So while we are talking about boosting it is worth bringing up.


idk, I guess the ship should go red to the guys in hi-sec so they have a chance of killing it..


I DO remember people in incursions using ships to suicide gank OGBs of other gangs, and the general idea was it was worth it. It was pretty easy too because they were so squishy and couldn't fit tanks.


But for balancing pvp in 0.0 and lowsec, hi-sec shouldn't even be considered imo.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#80 - 2012-08-15 17:49:25 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


I see it now, all the people who think OGBs are "OP" are too uncreative or too lazy to counter them.


What if said monster booster is in NPC corp and in Hi sec boosting for a war decking corp? How is it then fair? Should he be flagged red as he is helping the fleet


Hi-sec PvP...

lol.


I dont do it but I can see this being abused there. So while we are talking about boosting it is worth bringing up.


idk, I guess the ship should go red to the guys in hi-sec so they have a chance of killing it..


I DO remember people in incursions using ships to suicide gank OGBs of other gangs, and the general idea was it was worth it. It was pretty easy too because they were so squishy and couldn't fit tanks.


But for balancing pvp in 0.0 and lowsec, hi-sec shouldn't even be considered imo.


I agree with you 100% there but the problem is that game mechanics except for a few are server wide not just limited to low and null.

Could you imagine the cry if ccp took out boosting from Hi-Sec. Please don't troll that idea I am not ever making it just a side thought.