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Off grid boosting alts trying to evade the nerfbat
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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2012-08-15 15:42:33 UTC
Rroff wrote:
2 aspects to this, one as mentioned above the CSM has a good majority of representation from people who have fleet sizes where having on-grid boosters is perfectly feasible and infact to their advantage to remove off-grid boosting and also acknowledging that it should not exist isn't the same as saying it should be removed - I think it was wrong it was implemented in this way in the first place but given how its developed its an entirely different matter to say it should be removed.


I'm still waiting for the reasons as to why removing it would be bad. So far you have only said that

1) The CSM is biased

2) Off grid boosting developed in a certain way (which way? why does this make it a bad idea to remove off grid boosting?)
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-08-15 15:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Rroff wrote:
2 aspects to this, one as mentioned above the CSM has a good majority of representation from people who have fleet sizes where having on-grid boosters is perfectly feasible and infact to their advantage to remove off-grid boosting and also acknowledging that it should not exist isn't the same as saying it should be removed - I think it was wrong it was implemented in this way in the first place but given how its developed its an entirely different matter to say it should be removed.


I'm still waiting for the reasons as to why removing it would be bad. So far you have only said that

1) The CSM is biased

2) Off grid boosting developed in a certain way (which way? why does this make it a bad idea to remove off grid boosting?)


Because when offgrid boosting is removed, the small gangs will have no chance against the blob with claymore who goes faster, points longer, aligns faster, and has 2 RR repping the claymore.


Small gangs warfare is already about to die, and this is just another unneeded buff to mindless blobbing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-08-15 15:51:56 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Keep the 5% bonus for T3s, limit their boosting to like 5 pilots.
I'm more in favour of making it show off the (admittedly not all that consistent) idea of T3 = versatile and making it a lower bonus, but which applies to a wider range of command modules, maybe even removing the racial bonuses entirely and just make it a flat [whatever]% on all links.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-08-15 15:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Diesel47 wrote:
Because when offgrid boosting is removed, the small gangs will have no chance against the blob with claymore who goes faster, points longer, aligns faster, and has 2 RR repping the claymore.


When offgrid boosting is removed, the pilots without a boosting alt will have a chance to engage more targets.


Diesel47 wrote:
Small gangs warfare is already about to die, and this is just another unneeded buff to mindless blobbing.


That might have something to do with the entry ticket into competitive small gang warfare being an off grid boosting alt.

If you're solo or in small gangs, you better not engage people that have links because you stand little chance of success.


In other words, I'm still waiting for an argument as to why removing off grid boosting would be bad for the game as a whole.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-08-15 15:55:31 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Because when offgrid boosting is removed, the small gangs will have no chance against the blob with claymore who goes faster, points longer, aligns faster, and has 2 RR repping the claymore.


When offgrid boosting is removed, the pilots without a boosting alt will have a chance to engage more targets.



That makes no sense. What does this even have to do with small gangs.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-08-15 15:57:35 UTC
my idea:

ships that are not on-grid with your link ship get partial bonuses

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-08-15 15:59:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
my idea:

ships that are not on-grid with your link ship get partial bonuses


Still buffs blobbing.
Thien Long
Russian Black Horse
#48 - 2012-08-15 16:07:30 UTC
nullsec is blob vs blob, deal with it, its been like that for long time, small ganag in nullsec is to hit and run not to fight head on with a blob, i say ccp should fix this gang boosting to make only give bonus when it present WITH the fleet not in SS somewhere or pos, if they want bonus they have to risk it
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#49 - 2012-08-15 16:17:51 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Because when offgrid boosting is removed, the small gangs will have no chance against the blob with claymore who goes faster, points longer, aligns faster, and has 2 RR repping the claymore.


Small gangs warfare is already about to die, and this is just another unneeded buff to mindless blobbing.



Could you explain further how this would kill small gang warfare, I don't really see your point ?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-08-15 16:20:20 UTC
Thien Long wrote:
nullsec is blob vs blob, deal with it, its been like that for long time, small ganag in nullsec is to hit and run not to fight head on with a blob, i say ccp should fix this gang boosting to make only give bonus when it present WITH the fleet not in SS somewhere or pos, if they want bonus they have to risk it


Another uninformed post by a pilot with no kills and two losses.

Null-sec is not just blob vs blob. You are wrong.

And small gangs can't "hit and run" like you say if the blob is getting bonuses while they aren't.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-08-15 16:23:02 UTC
Sheynan wrote:



Could you explain further how this would kill small gang warfare, I don't really see your point ?



I could, but this guy from another thread did an amazing job of explaining why and how this will effect the small gangs.


Here it is:


Vytone wrote:
Post with your main please. Unless ofcourse this is your main and in which case i would say how could you have the experience needed to understand what offgrid boosts mean to small gang pvp? I understand you only have 32 kills and 60 or so losses but you really should understand where some other pvpers are coming from through experience and not just, I hate offgrid boosters cause they can't take damage!, be a man!"

Dude some of us like to pvp outnumbered, or at least like having the ability to compete in pvp outnumbered since we find ourselves outnumbered very often. It's what makes Eve fun, that adrenaline rush during pvp. Now if an offgrid booster gives my gang of 10 the edge it needs to engage a gang of 60 or 70 then how is that imbalaced? If anything it helps to put Eve pvp back into balance.

The blob won't always win because of raw numbers anymore. If you force those boosters ongrid, it won't last 20 seconds, we all know that, but what we are really talking about here is if the small gang can successfully engage the big gang then the big gang must have inexperience, low sp player, pvp'ers with no imagination or intuitive thinking to counter those boosts.

In either case I say learn the game from someone who has some experience and stop whining about mechanics that were put in place rightfully so by CCP to help balance small gang vs. big gang pvp.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-08-15 16:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Diesel47 wrote:
And small gangs can't "hit and run" like you say if the blob is getting bonuses while they aren't.


You know, people actually used combat fitted Claymores for fast gangs before off grid boosting became popular. I know because I flew in them.

All your ideas about off grid boosting being REQUIRED for solo and small gang pvp are just fantasy.

And you completely ignore the deleterious effects of off grid boosters elsewhere.

If you actually went to lowsec and did FW where a good portion of kills are solo kills, you'll quickly discover that there are many people with an off grid boosting alt that you cannot win against unless you bring your own off grid boosting alt.

How do people deal with that?

- They stop flying solo and start flying in gangs.
- They start avoiding fights with pilots they know have an off grid booster alt.
- They get their own off grid booster alt just to stay on the same level.
- They stop pvp'ing in disgust.

This is how off grid boosters are killing real small scale pvp.
ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-08-15 16:30:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
...
brain-barf edit: …in fact, in a sense, if you'd want to go that way, the solution would probably have to be rather backwards: you reduce the boost they give overall so that losing one won't make that much difference, but then we immediately go into “so why bring one?” territory. I suppose you could fix that issue by making them generally appealing to fly for anyone, even the fleet CSes, so that the actual boosters can hide in the crowd of all those other people flying the same ship, only those others have filled up all their highs with tons of weaponry instead of command modules.


Make the current CS bonus a mod bonus to the gang-link that changes depending on what ship it is on.

Gang-Links: (racial aligned)
2% bonus on all tech 1 ships, except BCs
3% bonus on all tech 2 or 3 ships, or tech 1 BCs
5% bonus on all tech 2 BC hulls.

Fitting requirements should be sufficient enough to gimp any offensive capabilty.
Thien Long
Russian Black Horse
#54 - 2012-08-15 16:34:08 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Thien Long wrote:
nullsec is blob vs blob, deal with it, its been like that for long time, small ganag in nullsec is to hit and run not to fight head on with a blob, i say ccp should fix this gang boosting to make only give bonus when it present WITH the fleet not in SS somewhere or pos, if they want bonus they have to risk it


Another uninformed post by a pilot with no kills and two losses.

Null-sec is not just blob vs blob. You are wrong.

And small gangs can't "hit and run" like you say if the blob is getting bonuses while they aren't.



you cant be serious right? please ok? my point in this problem is if they want a fleet bonus they have to have that ship present with the fleet, so you or anyone decide to kill it atleast u can, as of right now you dont have that option.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-08-15 16:36:49 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
And small gangs can't "hit and run" like you say if the blob is getting bonuses while they aren't.


You know, people actually used combat fitted Claymores for fast gangs before off grid boosting became popular. I know because I flew in them.

All your ideas about off grid boosting being REQUIRED for solo and small gang pvp are just fantasy.

And you completely ignore the deleterious effects of off grid boosters elsewhere.


No they aren't. Explain to what a small gang can do when they try to fight a larger gang that has command ships on field that will never die due to massive tanks and reps? Besides having that extra 2% boost from from their tengu, they are at a very very massive disadvantage. Once the blobs realize this the small gangs will have no chance.

I think OGBs should never be removed, but tengus should be nerfed to only boost something like 5 pilots and no OGBs can boost inside a POS.


And exactly what are these "deleterious effects" of OGBs that are elsewhere?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-08-15 16:43:32 UTC
ban off grid boosting
ban npc corps
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-08-15 16:43:55 UTC
ban off grid boosting
ban npc corps
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-08-15 16:58:08 UTC
OGB has no place in a good pvp game.

It makes as much sense as off grid remote repping and off grid remote EWAR.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#59 - 2012-08-15 16:59:48 UTC
I don't think I presented my views very clearly and probably misinterpreted the angle some people are coming from.

I not against removing off-grid boosting as such, I just see a lot of people who want it gone at any cost with no interest in what impact that has to gangboosting - if it killed it entirely that would be all the better for them, but theres probably some people who want it moved properly to ongrid boosting that I'm mistaking for the previously mentioned people. What I don't want to see, and why I'm vocally opponent to a direct removal of off-grid boosting is a knee jerk reaction that sees off-grid boosting killed without the impact of that change balanced out.

For instance say you decided to go with a fleet based around a core of guardians and proteus and get the most from that gang:

Prots - small sig, point range bonus, need to get in close to do their work best so anything that increases their speed would be good.

Guardians - small sig, work best with an afterburner for damage reduction but that reduces their ability to pull range - so anything that can decrease their sig further and increase the damage reduction and speed of their propulsion would be good.

We have the armor aspect covered with a legion or damnation while not ideal they can survive on grid with their massive EHP and good resists and do some, if not the most useful dps so the pilot has something to do in the fight atleast.

Skirmish links provide a bonus to point range, decreased sig and increased speed and agility, the perfect setup to get the most out of this gang... however we then have to look at the options for proper skirmish link boosting (assuming at this point we are restricted to on-grid boosters) - the ships are pretty much restricted to either the claymore or loki.

The claymore is bonused to and focused around shield tanking, it only has 4 low slots, it has a BC sized sig, armor tanked its lumbering with patchy resists and not the most EHP on its armor buffer - not really the ship to fit in with our gang composition and doctrine.

The loki struggles to fit 3x links and you can't spare any fitting for guns or any other useful mods, most of its slots are taken up with fitting modules and to get any kind of tank and propulsion on it means throwing a lot of ISK on pimp.


So we end up with a ship that needs a lot of hands on while not directly doing anything significant from the pilots point of view in terms of engagement with the action, which also isn't ideal in a small gang when the gang booster could be running an alt for off-grid with minimal hands on and a main for actual combat.


This is why I'm against a knife to the heart of off-grid boosting and prefer to see on-grid boosting made more effective before any changes to off-grid is made.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-08-15 17:03:51 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I don't think I presented my views very clearly and probably misinterpreted the angle some people are coming from.

I not against removing off-grid boosting as such, I just see a lot of people who want it gone at any cost with no interest in what impact that has to gangboosting - if it killed it entirely that would be all the better for them


You're over dramatizing. I played before OGB became popular and gangboosting was just doing fine back then. You actually had to make some choices rather than bringing a 6 ganglink monster that does everything at virtually no risk.


Rroff wrote:
The loki struggles to fit 3x links and you can't spare any fitting for guns or any other useful mods, most of its slots are taken up with fitting modules and to get any kind of tank and propulsion on it means throwing a lot of ISK on pimp.


Then adapt and use less links. Your opponents will have the same limitations that you do.