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new POSes and wormholes - what do w-space dwellers need?

First post
Author
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2012-08-15 15:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
Two step wrote:
IgnasS wrote:

Politician Tip Attention
Two Step you were not elected to promote and present your view, but the view of the community that elected you! Be sure that you won't be elected again if you act in such manner.
After seeing how community reacted to the ideas of possible POS rewamp, you should have picked up that CCP batphone and scream to the devs - "Oh shite, we ***** up big time, need to discuss all the ideas again! ASAP! Before it's too late."


Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.

Another free tip: This stuff isn't going to be in the Winter patch, so there is another chance to discuss it with CCP at the upcoming winter summit.



Sorry bro, but that is not your community, that is your reader base.

Confirmed to be wrong data: "That is a bit different, since the majority of the community took a break from being your reader base when you posted a blog on how w-space entities lack the end game content and should be able to build supers in their holes." kkthxbai.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#322 - 2012-08-15 15:32:43 UTC
Meytal wrote:
AHARM should be thankful that they have such a good reputation, especially right now since they're weak in active numbers, though I don't know why they keep a certain few people around. Corps have been evicted for less than this kind of garbage.


Does this mean if I keep pissing you off the mighty w-space corp "School of Applied Knowledge" will come invade us? Do you know how much everyone in AHARM is wishing someone would step up and even attempt to invade?

Bane Nucleus wrote:
Two Step, I would really like to know what you are basing this assumption that lower wh space needs to be nerfed on? Do you have an alt in a lower wh space corp or something, because I don't see where you are getting all these beliefs from.

We (KAIRS) live the lower class wormhole life everyday, and none of what you have talked about we have seen. I can't even begin to tell you how many reinforced pos's we find regularly, or the handful of caps we have seen that just didn't matter when it came time to siege the system. You make it sound like capitals are the be all/end all and they just aren't for us, or anyone we have seen.

Also, as one of the big fish in the lower wh space pond, forcing smaller corps to use lesser POS's puts them at a SERIOUS disadvantage. One where, if we decided to show up, they could not hope to keep their system. This is assuming that KAIRS even remains in wh space if these changes were put into effect.


I'm basing it on my experience, and talking to lots of people. I don't think capitals are the be all and end all, but they are a tremendous people multiplier. A triage carrier in a C1 where no Bhaalgorns can come in and neut it is very powerful.

As for the big fish comment, that is already true. Right now, many of the larger w-space alliances could kick just about anyone out of c1-c4 space. The only reason they aren't doing that right now is because they have no reason to do so. I don't see how making them more vulnerable to smaller groups changes that in any way.

Klarion Sythis wrote:
Two step: I asked about 5 pages back whether you thought (based on your NDA knowledge) forcefields had to go and received somewhat of a non-answer. I've read the minutes, your blog, this whole thread, etc. I know what's been said on the issue, so let me clarify:

There are some ideas that could allow these new POSes to keep most people happy, but it would involve a smaller version of the FF. Based on what you know about the "technical reasons", is there room for any type of FF mechanic, or do the technical reasons require that they be abolished in any form?

Rough idea: The new POSes are going to be an actual structure instead of a space stick. I'm ok with the docking environment, but not so much actual docking. Mooring is going in the right direction, but it needs to be expanded on. The POS should have places to moor all over it, but still limited, and expandable by expanding the structure. No docking module. Instead, when you moor, you get an option to enter the station environment (Captains Quarter's) but your ship stays moored to the outside of the POS and shows you are piloting it. This allows intel preservation for both the enemy, and you, when you exit the station environment, still moored.

The catch, is that to prevent you from unmooring into a kill zone, the entire POS still needs a reduced FF (preferably asymmetric per POS setup) that is big enough to allow you to fly near the POS and exit the FF where you need to. This retains the need to bubble a whole POS, and allows pilots to avoid kill zones. The FF needs to be small enough to let CCP do whatever they need, but large enough you won't fly into a satellite dish while POS hugging and get bumped out.

So...are FF mechanics still on the table in any form, or is this idea not feasible? If you don't know, that's fine, but in that case, please consider presenting this idea to find out.

Thanks.


I've asked for some clarity from CCP, especially public clarity on FFs. My feeling is that they are probably gone. I'm not sure what exactly would be different in your proposal than just having a spherical FF. Your request for showing the active ship someone is in when docked is *exactly* what I asked for in the minutes:
Two step pointed out that this system might be nice for docking as well, so that people can get some indication of how many people are active in a starbase, especially in w-space where there is no local chat.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#323 - 2012-08-15 15:34:37 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Two step wrote:


Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.

Another free tip: This stuff isn't going to be in the Winter patch, so there is another chance to discuss it with CCP at the upcoming winter summit.



Sorry bro, but that is not your community, that is your reader base. That is a bit different, since the majority of the community took a break from being your reader base when you posted a blog on how w-space entities lack the end game content and should be able to build supers in their holes. kkthxbai.


Again, I am not going to let people throw around completely false accusations. Please point to where I said anything at all like that. I'll wait....

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Nycodemis
National Institute of Mental Health
#324 - 2012-08-15 15:38:11 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Nycodemis wrote:
Two step, you were elected in hopes that our voices, through you, would lead to the betterment of W-Space as a whole and all of the corps within... not just AHARM and C5/C6 dwellers.


He's not speaking on behalf of c5/c6 dwellers in general either, since none of us want stupid docking games.


My fault for not being more clear. I realize almost no one wants to bring The Docking Games to w-space. Referring to c5-6 dwellers was only in regards to tower size limitations.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2012-08-15 15:38:58 UTC
Two step wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Are you saying that you only consider your community to be the people who read and comment on your blogs and that everyone else is irrelevant?


Yes, of course that is what I am saying. Come on, the stupid attacks are totally pointless, and just serve to undermine your other points. The reason I brought that stuff up is because I don't own a time machine. The only way I can present the views of w-space people is if those people tell me what their views are. I was totally clear both before and after the election about what I wanted from a POS redesign, and if you didn't speak up *before* the summit, how on earth was I supposed to know how you felt?


Firstly, that was a sincere question and you made it sound like that was what you are saying, so don't get personal and start calling me stupid because i ask you to clarify, rather than flying off the handle and making wild accusations that you don't give a crap about what anyone thinks.

Secondly, I try to keep up with what's going on with the CSM as much as possible but i must have missed your proposals to remove FF and force us into small gankable pos's. If i knew that at the time of the elections i wouldn't have got my entire alliance to vote for you. My bad.

But all this arguing is pointless. All people want you to do now is convey are feelings to CCP and put your personal views to one side because it is clear that you are out of touch with the rest of us.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#326 - 2012-08-15 15:44:58 UTC
Two step wrote:


I'm basing it on my experience, and talking to lots of people. I don't think capitals are the be all and end all, but they are a tremendous people multiplier. A triage carrier in a C1 where no Bhaalgorns can come in and neut it is very powerful.


We have neut legions for just this issue. Sadly, we have never had to use them as all the c1 bashes we have done have not involved the defenders using caps.

Two step wrote:


Right now, many of the larger w-space alliances could kick just about anyone out of c1-c4 space. The only reason they aren't doing that right now is because they have no reason to do so.


So the issue isn't that they are too well defended. It's that the bigger alliances just don't want to.

No trolling please

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#327 - 2012-08-15 15:50:39 UTC
Blah blah words words.

Ok, sure, fine whatever. People may have not known about the FF thing a while ago. Or they may have missed your blog or whatever, or not known your personal views on docking, lower class wormholes, etc. Maybe you didn't have a great understanding of the views and concerns wormhole players have on some of these things. Blah blah. What's done is done, but what we need to do now is look forward.

That is to say, instead of making excuses, justifying your own personal views, dickwaving / posturing at alts about aharm, flat out calling people "stupid" in this thread, etc, maybe you represent the people who elected you and help get their views across to ccp as best as possible from now on.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#328 - 2012-08-15 15:57:48 UTC
Two step wrote:

I've asked for some clarity from CCP, especially public clarity on FFs. My feeling is that they are probably gone. I'm not sure what exactly would be different in your proposal than just having a spherical FF. Your request for showing the active ship someone is in when docked is *exactly* what I asked for in the minutes:
Two step pointed out that this system might be nice for docking as well, so that people can get some indication of how many people are active in a starbase, especially in w-space where there is no local chat.


The example I listed wasn't meant to be presented as an original idea, just an example to illustrate the kind of answer I was looking for on the FF issue and why knowing the answer would be helpful. The difference between the example I listed and how things work now is size. The description of the mooring idea in the minutes included a mini forcefield, so it seemed plausible size was the issue rather than the entire mechanic. Also, mini forcefields on mooring points still create kill zones versus a mini forcefield over the whole POS.

Hopefully CCP will listen to your request and provide some clarity on the issue so we're less in the dark on the possibilities. Thank you for re-answering my question.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#329 - 2012-08-15 15:58:11 UTC
Two step wrote:
As for the big fish comment, that is already true. Right now, many of the larger w-space alliances could kick just about anyone out of c1-c4 space. The only reason they aren't doing that right now is because they have no reason to do so. I don't see how making them more vulnerable to smaller groups changes that in any way.


Why should they be vulnerable to small groups? Will it promote more/better fights in lower class wormholes (is there a lack of fights in lower class wormholes)? Is there any problem that actually needs fixing here?

Also, who the hell says larger alliances aren't evicting people from lower class wormholes? That seems to happen quite regularly. You think people in low class wormholes aren't getting kicked out ever? Please, lower class wormhole residents get kicked out far far more than residents in big fortress c5-c6s. Even if you were correct in saying that people weren't getting kicked out of low class wormholes because there's "no reason to do so" (which you are not. Very not)... making lower class wormholes less valuable overall with additional limitations would only make this problem WORSE. There'd be even LESS reason for anyone to want to bother.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2012-08-15 16:02:40 UTC
Two step wrote:

As for the big fish comment, that is already true. Right now, many of the larger w-space alliances could kick just about anyone out of c1-c4 space. The only reason they aren't doing that right now is because they have no reason to do so. I don't see how making them more vulnerable to smaller groups changes that in any way.


Bear with me because i am trying my hardest to understand here...

You are admitting that there are multiple entities that can evict anyone they want from C1-C4, and you don't see a problem in making it effortless for them to do this by nerfing the defense of low end pos's? I Ugh


Two step wrote:

Do you know how much everyone in AHARM is wishing someone would step up and even attempt to invade?


Let me ask you this - How many capital ships do you have in your home system?

I bet you won't/can't answer that question but i bet it's over 20.

If anyone wanted to evict you they would need a fleet that could match yours in a head on battle. How long would this take the attackers to do and then explain to me how this is any different than if a group was to invade a C2 which required them to use multiple wormholes to get their BS fleet in?
Lexylia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#331 - 2012-08-15 16:03:41 UTC
Make Gaint post ... gets ignored by TwoSteps..... You are a mean person ;.[
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#332 - 2012-08-15 16:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
Two step wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
Two step wrote:


Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.

Another free tip: This stuff isn't going to be in the Winter patch, so there is another chance to discuss it with CCP at the upcoming winter summit.



Sorry bro, but that is not your community, that is your reader base. That is a bit different, since the majority of the community took a break from being your reader base when you posted a blog on how w-space entities lack the end game content and should be able to build supers in their holes. kkthxbai.


Again, I am not going to let people throw around completely false accusations. Please point to where I said anything at all like that. I'll wait....



Looks like I was wrong about your blog post, does not change the fact that your support base is NOT your reader base. It is much larger and when we supported your vision of POSes we supported YOUR vision. Not this entire-city-made-of-poses-away-from-celestials-unavailable-in-low-class-wspace monstrosity that we are facing now.
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#333 - 2012-08-15 16:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Madner Kami
Ignore this post, the forum ate my actual message >.<
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#334 - 2012-08-15 16:17:38 UTC
Since the amount of rage and butthurt in this thread is nearing absolutely childish levels and it seems all that can be said has been said, I suggest we send Two Step back to CCP with any feedback he thinks can be gathered from here and wait for whatever information is released next.

My opinion has not changed: I Still hate the current POS mechanics more than I hate the uncertainty of changing mechanics.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#335 - 2012-08-15 16:58:13 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Since the amount of rage and butthurt in this thread is nearing absolutely childish levels and it seems all that can be said has been said, I suggest we send Two Step back to CCP with any feedback he thinks can be gathered from here and wait for whatever information is released next.

My opinion has not changed: I Still hate the current POS mechanics more than I hate the uncertainty of changing mechanics.


If you did not wear a monocle I might almost have regarded you as reasonable P

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -

Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#336 - 2012-08-15 17:19:23 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Since the amount of rage and butthurt in this thread is nearing absolutely childish levels and it seems all that can be said has been said, I suggest we send Two Step back to CCP with any feedback he thinks can be gathered from here and wait for whatever information is released next.

My opinion has not changed: I Still hate the current POS mechanics more than I hate the uncertainty of changing mechanics.


If you did not wear a monocle I might almost have regarded you as reasonable P


He only supports dockable POSs so he can play more space barbie anyway Cool
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#337 - 2012-08-15 17:26:57 UTC
Myz Toyou wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Since the amount of rage and butthurt in this thread is nearing absolutely childish levels and it seems all that can be said has been said, I suggest we send Two Step back to CCP with any feedback he thinks can be gathered from here and wait for whatever information is released next.

My opinion has not changed: I Still hate the current POS mechanics more than I hate the uncertainty of changing mechanics.


If you did not wear a monocle I might almost have regarded you as reasonable P


He only supports dockable POSs so he can play more space barbie anyway Cool

I got an instinctive "Action Man is not a doll!"-reaction. Oops

Guilty as charged.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#338 - 2012-08-15 18:08:47 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Looks like I was wrong about your blog post, does not change the fact that your support base is NOT your reader base. It is much larger and when we supported your vision of POSes we supported YOUR vision. Not this entire-city-made-of-poses-away-from-celestials-unavailable-in-low-class-wspace monstrosity that we are facing now.


Awesome, so how about going back and editing in a mention that the post was wrong?


Lexylia wrote:
Make Gaint post ... gets ignored by TwoSteps..... You are a mean person ;.[


Sorry! If I don't quote your post it doesn't mean I didn't read it, it was just that many of your points were already covered in the thread. Specifically, you asked about fixing the current POS system, which as I have said several times, is not an option to CCP.

Rek Seven wrote:
Two step wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Are you saying that you only consider your community to be the people who read and comment on your blogs and that everyone else is irrelevant?


Yes, of course that is what I am saying. Come on, the stupid attacks are totally pointless, and just serve to undermine your other points. The reason I brought that stuff up is because I don't own a time machine. The only way I can present the views of w-space people is if those people tell me what their views are. I was totally clear both before and after the election about what I wanted from a POS redesign, and if you didn't speak up *before* the summit, how on earth was I supposed to know how you felt?


Firstly, that was a sincere question and you made it sound like that was what you are saying, so don't get personal and start calling me stupid because i ask you to clarify, rather than flying off the handle and making wild accusations that you don't give a crap about what anyone thinks.

Secondly, I try to keep up with what's going on with the CSM as much as possible but i must have missed your proposals to remove FF and force us into small gankable pos's. If i knew that at the time of the elections i wouldn't have got my entire alliance to vote for you. My bad.

But all this arguing is pointless. All people want you to do now is convey are feelings to CCP and put your personal views to one side because it is clear that you are out of touch with the rest of us.


The first part of the question may have been sincere, but the "everyone else is irrelevant" part clearly wasn't. As I said above, I wouldn't be here responding to this thread if I didn't consider all of you my community. After all, the reason this forum even exists is because I asked CCP for it over and over and over again.

Of course, after the first paragraph, you drop right back into unconstructive mode, so I will not be responding to that.

Telling CCP "People like Forcefields" isn't all that helpful if they are set on getting rid of them. What is helpful is to talk to them about the reasons people like (and dislike) forcefields. That is what I have been doing, and what I plan on continuing to do. My job is not to design the new POS system, it is to tell CCP what people want from a new POS system.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#339 - 2012-08-15 18:16:26 UTC
It's too bad that there is no poll function on here, as it would be easier to see how many care about which issues. Obviously, it's not perfect, but it's better than having to read through all these lol

No trolling please

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2012-08-15 18:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Two step wrote:

The first part of the question may have been sincere, but the "everyone else is irrelevant" part clearly wasn't. As I said above, I wouldn't be here responding to this thread if I didn't consider all of you my community. After all, the reason this forum even exists is because I asked CCP for it over and over and over again.

Of course, after the first paragraph, you drop right back into unconstructive mode, so I will not be responding to that.

Telling CCP "People like Forcefields" isn't all that helpful if they are set on getting rid of them. What is helpful is to talk to them about the reasons people like (and dislike) forcefields. That is what I have been doing, and what I plan on continuing to do. My job is not to design the new POS system, it is to tell CCP what people want from a new POS system.


Jesus Christ Two step, i don't want to sit here and aregue with you but what do you expect when you glosse over the main point of peoples posts and just respond to the negative comments?

Clearly you have not thought about these new POS mechanics enough as you are unable to come up with any convincing arguments to back up your views. I wish we could have an intelegent conversation about this but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I just hope you stick to what you said: "My job is not to design the new POS system, it is to tell CCP what people want from a new POS system."