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new POSes and wormholes - what do w-space dwellers need?

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IgnasS
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#281 - 2012-08-15 09:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: IgnasS
kapolov wrote:
Senn Denroth wrote:
(and skipped several posts by alts) .



You know what though we actually have to post on alts when posting sensitive information like i did about our WH on alts to get our point across because hey there is actually people in C1-4's that go after gravy WH's to evict people.

...snip...

Give me a break.


Post with your main if you want to get your point across (many skip over alt posts), just don't reveal that sensitive information Smile


Two step wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:


... I think I have been quite clear on where I personally stand, and if you don't agree with my views, you are free to elect someone else next time ...


Politician Tip Attention
Two Step you were not elected to promote and present your view, but the view of the community that elected you! Be sure that you won't be elected again if you act in such manner.
After seeing how community reacted to the ideas of possible POS rewamp, you should have picked up that CCP batphone and scream to the devs - "Oh shite, we ***** up big time, need to discuss all the ideas again! ASAP! Before it's too late."
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#282 - 2012-08-15 09:32:57 UTC
That quote is really quite damning; Two Step you're allowed your own opinions, but you have to also present the general concerns and opinions of those who elected you. Only talking about your own personal views and saying "elect someone else next time" is ridiculous. You seem to be reacting to becoming a csm member the same way some idiot children react to being made hall-monitor at school. No one likes that kid.
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#283 - 2012-08-15 09:59:50 UTC
I find it funny that some people think they are the community. lol Shocked

The only real thing we all seem to agree on is that low class wormholes are fine and should not be nerfed. I've seen proponents and opponents about all other issues. So, claiming two step is acting against the community is just not true. Give the guy a break, it's hard representing an entire community, especially one filled with ocd folks like us :P I think he's doing fine as our voice on the CSM.
kapolov
Doomheim
#284 - 2012-08-15 10:04:57 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
I find it funny that some people think they are the community. lol Shocked

The only real thing we all seem to agree on is that low class wormholes are fine and should not be nerfed. I've seen proponents and opponents about all other issues. So, claiming two step is acting against the community is just not true. Give the guy a break, it's hard representing an entire community, especially one filled with ocd folks like us :P I think he's doing fine as our voice on the CSM.


Did you not read enough of the pages where he has said several times that he does not agree that low class WH's are "fine"?

I in fact think low class holes to some degree need buffs in income level's to encourage corps to grow further to the size of C5/C6 corps.
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-08-15 10:07:49 UTC
kapolov wrote:
Did you not read enough of the pages where he has said several times that he does not agree that low class WH's are "fine"?


You must have missed all the response he got on that.
kapolov
Doomheim
#286 - 2012-08-15 10:08:53 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
kapolov wrote:
Did you not read enough of the pages where he has said several times that he does not agree that low class WH's are "fine"?


You must have missed all the response he got on that.


You must have missed where he has ignored all those responses.

Just like the response to the other complaints.
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#287 - 2012-08-15 10:27:55 UTC
Just from this thread alone:

Wormhole nerf/buf.
Two step wrote:
Defenders in lower class wormholes already have the tremendous advantage of being able to build their own capitals, and as people have pointed out, they have even easier access to highsec, so they should be able to build as many of them as they want. I don't like this, and I don't see any reason that they should also have the full POS defenses and shield HP that someone in a C5 has. The simplest reason for this is because *any* attacker is going to be bringing *far* less DPS to shoot a POS in a C2 or C1 than they could bring with one or two dreads in a C5 or C6. A single dread is somewhere around 10,000 DPS (and DPS at a range that can hit a POS), in a C1 where you are limited to BC and below you are talking about 600 DPS per ship max. That means each dread is 16 or so pilots worth of DPS.


Forcefields
Two step wrote:
As for the FF stuff, people are blaming me for CCP's decisions here. If it were up to me, I don't see a reason to get rid of them, but *it isn't up to me*. My preferred mechanism would actually be that people could choose between docking and having a forcefield, but not both.


Docking games
Two step wrote:
I understand that lots of folks are worried about docking games, and I have a couple of responses:
1) Docking modules will not be on every POS. They will at least cost a lot of fuel to operate, and may not fit into lower class wormholes at all
2) Being docked is, as was pointed out, both an advantage an a disadvantage. When docked you don't have intel on what is going on outside the POS, and people don't know what you are flying.
3) Docking in a POS will be different than at a station. For one thing, you have guns, webs and points on your POS to attack campers. Consider the situation right now, how many of you camp random POSes with defenses online?
4) How are docking games any worse than forcefield games right now? With a forcefield, you can even enter while agressed, unlike docking currently (though I have no idea if POS docking would have the same restrictions)


Dscan intel
Two step wrote:
I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system.


Multiple POS on the same grid
Two step wrote:
Multiple POSes on grid I talked about in the post right before your post! I do have concerns about them, and I think CCP needs to think about a system like limiting the amount of guns that could be on a single grid, or something similar. In general, just like the current system, POSes should be defended by ships, not by turrets.

POS anchoring locations is certainly a concern. I think this falls pretty far into the "it hasn't been designed yet" camp though. Perhaps most POSes will be findable with the built in scanner? Perhaps they will be on the overview unless you spend lots of extra power on cloaking modules (which are again, just an idea)? Perhaps it is a good thing that someone could be sitting in a POS you don't know about and surprise you?


What did I miss?

Now some of us may not agree on all of this, but stating he doesn't adress stuff is bullshit. You might get more out of just talking about WHY you are for/against stuff instead of attacking people because he sais something you don't like.

Also, if you're really serious, two step indicated on several occasions he's open for convo's to exchange ideas. Wich would be way more effective then forums.. (but I guess most ppl are just trolling and don't have the nerve for this)

bah i don't know why i keep getting drawn back to shi trhead :(
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#288 - 2012-08-15 10:44:42 UTC
We HAVE discussed why we're for/against certain things, and the responses we get from him are a joke. Telling us we should have elected someone else, or implying our feedback is irrelevant as CCP have already decided certain things (that are hid behind NDAs), or other crap that makes my faith in him, the csm in general and CCP plummet.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#289 - 2012-08-15 10:59:35 UTC
Senn Denroth wrote:

Nycodemis wrote:
I like this. The option to strap on a FF generator instead of docking/mooring arrays (or whatever they'll be called) would work in that respect. One or the other, they don't work together.... assuming that CCP is intent on ditching the current FF.


Give this man the golden medal, he has actually solved all the issues with this one statement here! Choose between a forcefield module or a docking module, have both of them use 51% CPU of what a large tower can put out, this will only enable one per tower.. or something to that effect (it doesn't have to be the CPU thing).


Uh, how about including his quote of *me* who was the one that said that...

Two step wrote:

If it were up to me, I don't see a reason to get rid of them, but *it isn't up to me*. My preferred mechanism would actually be that people could choose between docking and having a forcefield, but not both.


SpaceSavage wrote:


PS: change clone is also BS, if you're too scared to fly your +5 clone to pvp in wspace, go back to empire.


http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13294 I fly with +5s already in w-space, I want to be able to switch between them, slave sets and talismans.


(running out of allowed quotes in a single post, to be continued)

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#290 - 2012-08-15 11:09:23 UTC
Ashimat wrote:
Quote:
People who build capitals in the lower class wormholes are in the minority, and not very smart about what they're doing, since they can't get them out. So you're not going to come across corps that have "built as many of them as they wanted"......

Minority? maybe.

But they are the ones that do it right, or at least try to. You don't seriously think that it's a bad idea to build caps in a low class WH because you cant get them out do you?

That the same minority in most cases either opts to not use them or cant fly them properly when they are really needed is another matter.


This is 100% correct. Just because some people use caps badly in lower class wormholes doesn't mean someone competent, like say the LOST guys, wouldn't be able to use them properly. How many caps do they have in that c2 of theirs?


TheGunslinger42 wrote:


He's not speaking on behalf of c5/c6 dwellers in general either, since none of us want stupid docking games.


*Nobody* is asking for docking games. If you want to participate in the big boy discussions, you need to act like a big boy. There are plenty of people in this very thread that want the ability to dock, especially if some of the intel issues can be resolved. Making demonstrably false statements doesn't help your argument, it just makes people ignore what you are saying.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Indo Nira wrote:
but did you tell them that? or are you just an ass-kissing wannabe politician sucking up to the people that are paying for your trips to Iceland?


I imagine it went something like this:
CCP: *throws around some ideas, including very bad ones*
Two Step: Yup yup yup yup *just happy to be there guy* yup yup yup
Two Step on forums: *praise these ideas*
Everyone who voted for him: Wow, no. These are bad because ...
Two Step: Well it's ccp doing it anyway, but I do love it. Yup yup yup.

and in the future:
wormhole space in ruins
two step never getting near a seat on the csm again


How about you take 10 minutes out of your obviously very busy day and read the minutes? It is very clear to anyone who has done so that I wasn't at all shy about disagreeing with CCP when I think they were wrong.

(more to be continued, stupid quote limit)

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#291 - 2012-08-15 11:09:31 UTC
IgnasS wrote:

Politician Tip Attention
Two Step you were not elected to promote and present your view, but the view of the community that elected you! Be sure that you won't be elected again if you act in such manner.
After seeing how community reacted to the ideas of possible POS rewamp, you should have picked up that CCP batphone and scream to the devs - "Oh shite, we ***** up big time, need to discuss all the ideas again! ASAP! Before it's too late."


Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.

Another free tip: This stuff isn't going to be in the Winter patch, so there is another chance to discuss it with CCP at the upcoming winter summit.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2012-08-15 11:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Damn, I don't know what to think anymore... Clearly we are getting nowhere.


Two step wrote:

Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.


Are you saying that you only consider your community to be the people who read and comment on your blogs and that everyone else is irrelevant?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#293 - 2012-08-15 11:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
I tend to think that the prevalence of capitals in lower class wormholes is a double-edged sword.

Since access to their wormhole is much easier than C4s+ then there is a far greater chance in my opinion that people will see them and then camp out in their holes waiting for them to use them, or simply rustle up enough T3 BCs to RF their POS leaving them no option but to fight or lose it.

Capitals in higher class wormholes, perhaps not C6 due to the limited number of them, are perversely more safer - unless they're actually being proactively used in combat - because access is infrequent and more tightly controlled (it's arguably easier to collapse a C5/C6 hole with Orcas + capital than it is trying to collapse a static D845 with Orcas)

I don't really have a massive problem with people building capitals in C1-C3, but my attitude is that you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it once. Unless you are "grrrrrr I must evict them for some unfathomable reason even though I have no vested interest in living there" then how are those capitals affecting you? You might catch them out of POS, you might get them to drop them on a disposable bait POS... there are plenty of options if you're willing to think outside the box.

With respect to Two Step I think his mindset is rooted firmly in the playstyles of people who live in C6s - who are often a chain away from k-space and thus logistics and the need to jump between clones in w-space is a greater concern. Those of us who hop in and out of lower class wormholes from Empire - the vast majority of people I'd wager - have used and will continue to use a multitude of tools to prise people out of their POSes. Capitals in lower class wormholes only become an issue if you want to evict someone - and who really wants to bother doing that unless they want to move in themselves? It's not as if selling wormholes is particularly profitable compared to most other activities.
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#294 - 2012-08-15 11:25:12 UTC
Two step wrote:
Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.


Were they aware, that this would go hand in hand with the loss of the forcefield? I kinda doubt that, to be honest.
IgnasS
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2012-08-15 11:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: IgnasS
Two step wrote:
IgnasS wrote:

Politician Tip Attention
Two Step you were not elected to promote and present your view, but the view of the community that elected you! Be sure that you won't be elected again if you act in such manner.
After seeing how community reacted to the ideas of possible POS rewamp, you should have picked up that CCP batphone and scream to the devs - "Oh shite, we ***** up big time, need to discuss all the ideas again! ASAP! Before it's too late."


Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.

Another free tip: This stuff isn't going to be in the Winter patch, so there is another chance to discuss it with CCP at the upcoming winter summit.


Dear Two Step,

I just hope by saying you represent your community you mean all of us. We need to be heard and we need that concerns addressed and presented to CCP, so they can be discussed and the new system is designed by going through most of the possible scenarios. I really think that community doesn't want a mini copy k-space stations. We know that the new system is not coming with winter expansion, but most likely CCP is going start coding for that pretty soon, maybe beginning of next year, and once they code I really doubt they will want to rewrite the code again.

Best Regards,
IgnasS
Irya Boone
The Scope
#296 - 2012-08-15 11:31:45 UTC
There is one thing working fine in this game .. the W-space and instead of doing ameliorations of WiS for High sec Why for god sake CCP come to **** in the glue with Whormoles ...?? human stupidity ... best stupidity

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#297 - 2012-08-15 11:41:06 UTC
Meytal wrote:

Because of the ease in which it is possible to flood a C2/HS system with invading forces compared to the difficulty in doing the same thing in a C6, I maintain that a C2/HS/? is more dangerous to live in than a C6/C6.

Quoted for truth. Same applies to C3 with static high too.

The argument that residents with capitals in lower class wormholes have an unfair advantage is a strange one since all you have to go is get a cloaky prober inside on of these holes and then you can just keep rolling the highsec until you get enough people in to do anything you want, and statistically more people are going to see those capitals being used or floating in POS so the risks are considerably higher.

C6s are a bit of a strange anomaly simply because you can chain-collapse to get the C6 you want, but I don't think game design should be based entirely upon the lack of easy access to station facilities when you live in C5+ - to be honest I'd go as far as to say that's one of the tradeoffs of considerably higher profits made in said holes.

I feel that the whole idea of POSes-that-are-stations-only-not-called-stations kinda reeks of a desire for wormhole sovereignty. POSes have problems in general and specifically in w-space that are widely known, I don't think anyone is disputing that, but I don't believe sweeping changes are needed that tend to solely benefit people that just coincidentally have infrequent access to empire stations.....
Lexylia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-08-15 11:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexylia
Wormhole nerf/buf.
Two step wrote:
Defenders in lower class wormholes already have the tremendous advantage of being able to build their own capitals, and as people have pointed out, they have even easier access to highsec, so they should be able to build as many of them as they want. I don't like this, and I don't see any reason that they should also have the full POS defenses and shield HP that someone in a C5 has. The simplest reason for this is because *any* attacker is going to be bringing *far* less DPS to shoot a POS in a C2 or C1 than they could bring with one or two dreads in a C5 or C6. A single dread is somewhere around 10,000 DPS (and DPS at a range that can hit a POS), in a C1 where you are limited to BC and below you are talking about 600 DPS per ship max. That means each dread is 16 or so pilots worth of DPS.

I dont agree on this, because many C1-4 Corps have 5-15ppl so they only have thier POS to defend a large enemy fleet and if another corp really want to invade an already inhabitated WH(not like there are a watzliion good other low class WH) they gonna need to do plan and take isk in hand. But it´s do able its just need work. ALSO all in all EVE is not a fair place ... nerfing Low Class WH would be one step to closer to casusal wow MMO and this is what eve totaly isnt.

Forcefields!: ( couldnt quote the whole thing because i cant have more than 5quotes :/ ) but!
FF are fine >:[


Docking games
Two step wrote:
I understand that lots of folks are worried about docking games, and I have a couple of responses:
1) Docking modules will not be on every POS. They will at least cost a lot of fuel to operate, and may not fit into lower class wormholes at all

Wait what ... ? so basicly CCP take so much time and sooo much money to CCP develop this new really cool bu..erm feature for us WH dwellers to fix thos horrible totaly unuseable POS system but only make it usable to C5/C6 inhabitats ... FAIL ?


QUOTE TWOSTEPS
2) Being docked is, as was pointed out, both an advantage an a disadvantage. When docked you don't have intel on what is going on outside the POS, and people don't know what you are flying.
3) Docking in a POS will be different than at a station. For one thing, you have guns, webs and points on your POS to attack campers. Consider the situation right now, how many of you camp random POSes with defenses online?
/QUOTE TWOSTEPS

Docking sucks.... all we would need is like 7-10 Stealth Bomber and just bomb the whole fleet while they undocking....

Two step wrote:

4) How are docking games any worse than forcefield games right now? With a forcefield, you can even enter while agressed, unlike docking currently (though I have no idea if POS docking would have the same restrictions)

forcefield games ????? Sorry but never heard the term forcefield games could u specify this term please... just for my info

Also docking games are worse because u can instantly dock up again this would only force the lowsec station camp ambition... get sensor boost nados ... in a force field u cant simply back in because u need to stop turn around and stuff... also why would u go out then you just can warp to ANY direction out of a FF so u can put the fight there u want and when you want because u can see whats going out outside.... also a BIG PRO is nobody mentioned till now.... you can SCAN with probs while you are in a FF so you cant perma "scout" your WH or perma scan out enemy and make suprise buttseks attacks and to be able to be allways aware and be able to scout them is really really really really something i wont trade off for anything !!!

Dscan intel
Two step wrote:
I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system.

agree at least

Multiple POS on the same grid
Two step wrote:
Multiple POSes on grid I talked about in the post right before your post! I do have concerns about them, and I think CCP needs to think about a system like limiting the amount of guns that could be on a single grid, or something similar. In general, just like the current system, POSes should be defended by ships, not by turrets.
why on the same grid ? just simply why ?

POS anchoring locations is certainly a concern. I think this falls pretty far into the "it hasn't been designed yet" camp though. Perhaps most POSes will be findable with the built in scanner? Perhaps they will be on the overview unless you spend lots of extra power on cloaking modules (which are again, just an idea)? Perhaps it is a good thing that someone could be sitting in a POS you don't know about and surprise you?

No why what no why ? POS locations are fine like they are on moons... why change it as a good supply of intel everybody can optain without say HELLO HERE I AM AND I WILL GONNA RA(P)E your SHIP SO HIDE YO ASSES HIDE YO ASSETS....




All in all the simplest thing would be to ""just"" fix the POS systems and add T3 subsystem changeablity, repacked and contis and FF are more than fine ... i really dont undestand this lets invent a square weel mentality... just becausae the code is messy or really messy... I imply LAZYNESS on Developer site to correct thier source code... But this would take a buttload for work and this is what the dev dont want.. they want to do shiny but easy thing so just write a whole new thing.... this is bad ...


Alll in all i dont blame you TwoSteps (actually i need to praise you a bit) but some of your views are just narrow.. not all but some...


p.s i want to be able to quote more than 5 times -.-
p.p.s long post is long im not sorry for it
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#299 - 2012-08-15 12:21:39 UTC
Two step wrote:
Constituent tip:
I am representing my community. I wrote a blog post in April where my first bullet point was that new POSes should have docking. The feedback I got from my community then was that this was good.


Did they know at the time that forcefields were also being removed?

And do comments on your blog have more weight than disucssions on this forum? Did the discussion/comments on your blogs have as many participants and posts as this (and the other threads that have popped up) thread?

Your excuses and justifications are pathetic. Enjoy your short stay in the CSM mate.
Skippidipp
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2012-08-15 12:39:58 UTC
With no FF there will be no more sucideing of ships when you lose an invasion, thats why all 5-15 member corporations are complaining. There POS will be that more atractive for invasions.
Don't start with the FF is so great, cause thats a load of crap. Everyone that has to type in password every time they want to go in to a POS knows this. And the rest of the FF mechanics is just plain stupid. If CCP had a better designer back when POS first hit TQ, we wouldn't be stuck with this **** for all the time that we have. And yea, there would be no FF.
And docking games? Serious? What about FF games? How many of you that complains about docking games have ever done an invasion or been invaded?

Stop filling your POS with everything you own and you should be fine after they change them.