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hulk ccp
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Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-08-15 08:26:14 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.


No, it didn't. The hulk's absolute maximum cargo was cut by 45-50%, dependant on rigs, it's shield regeneration time was increased by roughly 60% (passive shield tank nerf), and its available cargo for crystals was significantly reduced as well. The overall net effect was a buff for the hulk, yes, but saying it was "buffed in every way" is incorrect. Hell, for that matter the effectiveness of damage controls on the hulk was nerfed because CCP reprioritized shield HP over hull HP for some strange reason.
Dave Stark
#62 - 2012-08-15 08:46:49 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.


No, it didn't. The hulk's absolute maximum cargo was cut by 45-50%, dependant on rigs, it's shield regeneration time was increased by roughly 60% (passive shield tank nerf), and its available cargo for crystals was significantly reduced as well. The overall net effect was a buff for the hulk, yes, but saying it was "buffed in every way" is incorrect. Hell, for that matter the effectiveness of damage controls on the hulk was nerfed because CCP reprioritized shield HP over hull HP for some strange reason.


**** fitting your hulk doesn't mean the hulk got nerfed.

also, the mackinaw has more ehp, yield and cargo than the shitfit hulk. again, how is there a nerf here?
ashley Eoner
#63 - 2012-08-15 09:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Dave stark wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Monsieur Leon wrote:
Unlike you I have a life so I don't spend all my time on Eve.

The Hulk got nerfed its pretty much useless compared to pre-patch. They need to tweak it again at the very least expand the Ore hold to something a bit more useful.

As for being tired of posts about mining ships... well your in the wrong forum. Go read something else.
The hulk has been buffed in every way excluding the cargohold. It now yields more and has a better tank. Only people like you who are using it incorrectly could see it as a nerf.


wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.
I assumed he had full cargo hold expander rigs/mods..
Dave Stark
#64 - 2012-08-15 09:11:57 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Monsieur Leon wrote:
Unlike you I have a life so I don't spend all my time on Eve.

The Hulk got nerfed its pretty much useless compared to pre-patch. They need to tweak it again at the very least expand the Ore hold to something a bit more useful.

As for being tired of posts about mining ships... well your in the wrong forum. Go read something else.
The hulk has been buffed in every way excluding the cargohold. It now yields more and has a better tank. Only people like you who are using it incorrectly could see it as a nerf.


wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.
I assumed hehad full cargo hold expander rigs/mods..


yeah, fail fitting your hulk doesn't mean it got nerfed, especially when they added a ship that beats the shitfit hulk in every way. even more so when you already have the skills to fly said ship.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-08-15 14:51:46 UTC
chandraboy wrote:
Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them upOops


It's funny when people don't read the release notes. Or the roughly 1,000 forum threads on this very issue. Or the help and mining channels in-game.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#66 - 2012-08-15 14:53:33 UTC
ariel jade wrote:
chandraboy wrote:
Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them upOops



I just noticed to day the te expanded Cargo was not working on my Hulk anymore.


It does work...for the cargo bay. Not for the ore bay.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-08-15 14:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Sigras wrote:
by that logic why not get a retriever? its got "about the same yield" and "about the same ore bay"
or why ever get an implant? its "about the same as not having one"


Actually I think more miners ought to give the Retriever a serious look before heading directly for a Mack. First of all, a Retriever is still in the same ballpark yield-wise as a Mack, and has a huge ore bay as well (27.5K m3 versus 35K m3 on the Mack). It only has one mid, so you can't tank it much, but so what? Put some T1 Hobs in your drone bay and you can tank any belt rat in hisec Empire space. Rets cost about 1/10 of what a Mack will run you, so you can easily lose one or two without caring much.

You can also skill into a Retriever pretty quick -- Industry V, Astrogeology III, and MIning Barge I puts you into one.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-08-15 19:44:37 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
**** fitting your hulk doesn't mean the hulk got nerfed.

also, the mackinaw has more ehp, yield and cargo than the shitfit hulk. again, how is there a nerf here?


Your response only applies to maximum cargo fittings, it does not apply to the shield recharge nerf, the lower base cargo capacity for mining crystals, or the reduced effectiveness of damage controls due to the HP reprioritization. Even if you want to discount ship fittings that's two clear nerfs, and while it still needs one to count fittings it's also one meta-nerf. For that matter the shield resistance bonus was lowered which in turn lowers the effectiveness of flat HP boosting modules like shield extenders which is another meta-nerf.

So with two actual nerfs and two meta-nerfs how was the hulk "buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo" again?
ashley Eoner
#69 - 2012-08-16 06:06:52 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
**** fitting your hulk doesn't mean the hulk got nerfed.

also, the mackinaw has more ehp, yield and cargo than the shitfit hulk. again, how is there a nerf here?


Your response only applies to maximum cargo fittings, it does not apply to the shield recharge nerf, the lower base cargo capacity for mining crystals, or the reduced effectiveness of damage controls due to the HP reprioritization. Even if you want to discount ship fittings that's two clear nerfs, and while it still needs one to count fittings it's also one meta-nerf. For that matter the shield resistance bonus was lowered which in turn lowers the effectiveness of flat HP boosting modules like shield extenders which is another meta-nerf.

So with two actual nerfs and two meta-nerfs how was the hulk "buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo" again?
Wait someone actually relied on the hulks natural shield recharge for a tank? Really?
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-08-16 06:56:40 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
]Wait someone actually relied on the hulks natural shield recharge for a tank? Really?


I would imagine that just about every high-sec miner who didn't fit a shield booster and mined below .9 (or .8, I can never remember where rats start spawning) security and couldn't be arsed to deploy drones did. That said the fact is that people who tanked their hulks actually did rely on the ship's passive regeneration to offset at least some of the damage, especially in DPS-oriented builds like the catalyst's, from suicide gankers. It takes a bit longer for someone to chew through your 5k shields if your shield tank can regenerate enough to mitigate 15% of their damage than it does if your regeneration only mitigates 10%, possibly long enough for CONCORD to put down the donuts and step on the antimatter. /shrugs.

Deride the idea all you want, but folks did rely on it to one degree or another and in one way or another.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#71 - 2012-08-16 13:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Shereza wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
]Wait someone actually relied on the hulks natural shield recharge for a tank? Really?


I would imagine that just about every high-sec miner who didn't fit a shield booster and mined below .9 (or .8, I can never remember where rats start spawning) security and couldn't be arsed to deploy drones did. That said the fact is that people who tanked their hulks actually did rely on the ship's passive regeneration to offset at least some of the damage, especially in DPS-oriented builds like the catalyst's, from suicide gankers. It takes a bit longer for someone to chew through your 5k shields if your shield tank can regenerate enough to mitigate 15% of their damage than it does if your regeneration only mitigates 10%, possibly long enough for CONCORD to put down the donuts and step on the antimatter. /shrugs.

Deride the idea all you want, but folks did rely on it to one degree or another and in one way or another.


I've never seen a rat spawn in .9, and I rarely get one in .8. In .5 systems, I tend to get a spawn of two or three rats every half-hour or so. I throw up some Hobs in .6 and .7 systems and have some moderate shield tank, and I've never had rats take my shield below 50% before the drones popped them. That's why I prefer hardeners/extenders to shield regens in hisec -- you have plenty of time between rat spawns for your shield to crank back up. It's also good for ablating huge alpha hits by gankers.

In lowsec and null you obviously need more in-depth tank, both active and passive.
ashley Eoner
#72 - 2012-08-16 22:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Shereza wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
]Wait someone actually relied on the hulks natural shield recharge for a tank? Really?


I would imagine that just about every high-sec miner who didn't fit a shield booster and mined below .9 (or .8, I can never remember where rats start spawning) security and couldn't be arsed to deploy drones did. That said the fact is that people who tanked their hulks actually did rely on the ship's passive regeneration to offset at least some of the damage, especially in DPS-oriented builds like the catalyst's, from suicide gankers. It takes a bit longer for someone to chew through your 5k shields if your shield tank can regenerate enough to mitigate 15% of their damage than it does if your regeneration only mitigates 10%, possibly long enough for CONCORD to put down the donuts and step on the antimatter. /shrugs.

Deride the idea all you want, but folks did rely on it to one degree or another and in one way or another.
So only fail people relied on it. It's like the fail people who fitted cargohold expanders in their lows and are now complaining about the loss space. So is a nerf really a nerf if it effects something that doesn't matter?

Like the person said above .9 and up has no spawns and even the hardest high sec rat gets obliterated by hobgoblins well before they do anything.


EDIT : I actually like the increase in shield tank on the hulk. Yes it makes a DC unit a bit less effective but it also means my orca pilot's siege warfare has a bigger effect then before (harmonizer etc).
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-08-17 00:12:38 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
I've never seen a rat spawn in .9, and I rarely get one in .8. In .5 systems, I tend to get a spawn of two or three rats every half-hour or so. I throw up some Hobs in .6 and .7 systems and have some moderate shield tank, and I've never had rats take my shield below 50% before the drones popped them.


Rats don't spawn in .9 systems, I said below .9 for a reason. As for popping them, I've found that in many situations, especially when multi-box mining, it's more efficient to ignore them if you can reasonably do so. Once spawned so long as none are killed the rats stick around attacking the same old target which means you can "safely" deploy mining drones with no fear of them being at risk until/unless some errant ratter blows up the NPCs attacking you.

ashley Eoner wrote:
So only fail people relied on it. It's like the fail people who fitted cargohold expanders in their lows and are now complaining about the loss space. So is a nerf really a nerf if it effects something that doesn't matter?


Yup, only idiots relied on passive regeneration. Smart people, however, used it if they could reasonably do so given that smart people generally use every resource available to accomplish their goals.

You'd have to be a moron not to make use of free shield regeneration, but hey, if there are people out there who packed two expander rigs and two expander mods in the lows on hulks I'm sure there are people out there who didn't want the extra 100-300 HP their shield regeneration could get them if someone (please note the singular nature since "a gang" would rip through even a buffered hulk before shield regeneration was a factor worth noting) tried to gank them.

ashley Eoner wrote:
EDIT : I actually like the increase in shield tank on the hulk. Yes it makes a DC unit a bit less effective but it also means my orca pilot's siege warfare has a bigger effect then before (harmonizer etc).


Unfortunately that "bigger effect" isn't all that much bigger. It's something like 104 EHP, 7.5%, when you compare buffer fits with orcas packing T2 harmonizing links using max skills and no siege mindlink.

TBH, it's annoying how quickly the hulk's EHP buff drops, percentage-wise, when you compare tanked builds from pre-1.2 and now.

[Hulk, EHP]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

That build went from 36,381 "omni" EHP to 38,488, a 5.8% increase, and the shield regeneration dropped from 138 DPS to 93 DPS, 32.6% drop. Contrast that to the 18.whatever% increase in raw EHP hulks got and it's annoying. It's still an EHP buff, it's still good, it's just annoying how you go from 18% naked to 6% tanked.
Pipa Porto
#74 - 2012-08-17 00:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Shereza wrote:

That build went from 36,381 "omni" EHP to 38,488, a 5.8% increase, and the shield regeneration dropped from 138 DPS to 93 DPS, 32.6% drop. Contrast that to the 18.whatever% increase in raw EHP hulks got and it's annoying. It's still an EHP buff, it's still good, it's just annoying how you go from 18% naked to 6% tanked.



The maximum amount of time a gank can take is ~26 seconds (this is assuming you're stupid enough not to rabbit when someone baits CONCORD away). A 45DPS reduced tank (assuming the entire thing happens at peak recharge Roll) loses you 1170 EHP regened during the gank. The change got you a 2107 EHP increase.

That's a net 937 EHP buff. That increases as the gank gets shorter because CONCORD's unspawned (who sticks around after CONCORD's been baited), or the gankers bring slightly more DPS than strcitly necessary.

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-08-17 02:15:06 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?


I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-08-17 17:56:37 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?


I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.


It got buffed in all the important way when you consider it's new intended role of fleet miner. For solo mining, it's definately NOT the ship to use and that is an intended result so nobody should be unhappy about it. The full cahnge at most require people who used to only own a hulk to buy a new ship if they used to mine solo in a hulk. If they didn't own one, they will ahve to choose what kind of mining they mostly intend to do. As an added bonus, if you plan to solo mine mostly and buy a mack, you can still do somewhat good if you happen to be in a fleet because the yields are not that far away.

The important point still stands tho. The hulk is NOT intended at all to be a solo miner now. NOT AT ALL. Thats why it does not have the right stats to solo mine efficiently.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#77 - 2012-08-17 19:20:26 UTC
Pfffa. Mine solo mines quite efficiently. I just have to not be lazy and dump ore every 3 min. ;)

I will admit I usually bring my Orca alt, but not always. I do break out the Mack when I decide to play the semi-afk game though.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Pipa Porto
#78 - 2012-08-17 19:26:40 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?


I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.


What's all this then?

Shereza wrote:
Unfortunately that "bigger effect" isn't all that much bigger. It's something like 104 EHP, 7.5%, when you compare buffer fits with orcas packing T2 harmonizing links using max skills and no siege mindlink.

TBH, it's annoying how quickly the hulk's EHP buff drops, percentage-wise, when you compare tanked builds from pre-1.2 and now.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ashley Eoner
#79 - 2012-08-17 20:20:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shereza wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?


I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.


What's all this then?

Shereza wrote:
Unfortunately that "bigger effect" isn't all that much bigger. It's something like 104 EHP, 7.5%, when you compare buffer fits with orcas packing T2 harmonizing links using max skills and no siege mindlink.

TBH, it's annoying how quickly the hulk's EHP buff drops, percentage-wise, when you compare tanked builds from pre-1.2 and now.
How dare you use reality and facts against Shreza. I mean seriously this person thinks that the hulk lost 100-300hp shield regen after the buff or something. Which will somehow stop a gang of gankers from ganking a hulk but not a hp buffer fit...
ashley Eoner
#80 - 2012-08-17 20:21:00 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Shereza wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?


I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.


What's all this then?

[quote=Shereza]Unfortunately that "bigger effect" isn't all that much bigger. It's something like 104 EHP, 7.5%, when you compare buffer fits with orcas packing T2 harmonizing links using max skills and no siege mindlink.

TBH, it's annoying how quickly the hulk's EHP buff drops, percentage-wise, when you compare tanked builds from pre-1.2 and now.
How dare you use reality and facts against Shreza. I mean seriously this person thinks that the hulk lost 100-300hp shield regen after the buff or something. Which will somehow stop a gang of gankers from ganking a hulk where as a buffer fit which has more HP will somehow be doomed..