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Lasers. Names. Changes. Please read before reaching for your weapons.

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#61 - 2012-08-14 16:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
While we are discussing metas, can we change the meta of prop mods so that they are all the same names for the highest existing meta? Its not a big deal, but its an annoyance every time I have to search the market for a prop mod

Ie, the best meta frig mwd is limited, but for 10mn sizes, its experimental, and for 100mn its prototype.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#62 - 2012-08-14 16:13:31 UTC
FoxFour, what if meta number was added to item icons? :) + your suggested name changes? no one would ever be in doubt about what is better than what...?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-08-14 16:14:24 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
While we are discussing metas, can we change the meta of prop mods so that they are all the same names for the highest existing meta? Its not a big deal, but its an annoyance every time I have to search the market for a prop mod

Ie, the best meta frig mwd is limited, but for 10mn sizes, its experimental, and for 100mn its prototype.


ABs and MWDs were the first renamed modules, and this was THE reason why people disliked the change I believe, because at first glance the renaming didn't change much at all...
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#64 - 2012-08-14 16:17:54 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
FoxFour, what if meta number was added to item icons? :) + your suggested name changes? no one would ever be in doubt about what is better than what...?


How about in the corner where other mods have the t2/faction/deadspace/storyline indicator, meta mods have green dots or something, corresponding to the meta level.
Murashu
Dead and Delirious
Brotherhood of Spacers
#65 - 2012-08-14 16:18:12 UTC
The new module names (limited, experimental, prototype) still make no sense to me as far as explaining how one is slightly better than the other. Please explain to me how a new or old player should know that a limited item has better stats than an experimental item?

I find myself searching the attibutes page looking for the meta level more now than ever before What?

If you really want to make this simple for us to understand and stop trying to confuse us with each new expansion go with something simple.

Meta 1 - Small Pulse Laser
Meta 2 - Medium Pulse Laser
Meta 5 - Large Pulse Laser
Meta 1 - 10mn Afterburner
Meta 6 - 100mn Microwarp Drive

so on and so on.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#66 - 2012-08-14 16:22:47 UTC
Don't use this generic **** for the guns.
You're destroying alot of flavor for basically nothing valuable.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-08-14 16:22:59 UTC
Murashu wrote:
The new module names (limited, experimental, prototype) still make no sense to me as far as explaining how one is slightly better than the other. Please explain to me how a new or old player should know that a limited item has better stats than an experimental item?

I find myself searching the attibutes page looking for the meta level more now than ever before What?

If you really want to make this simple for us to understand and stop trying to confuse us with each new expansion go with something simple.

Meta 1 - Small Pulse Laser
Meta 2 - Medium Pulse Laser
Meta 5 - Large Pulse Laser
Meta 1 - 10mn Afterburner
Meta 6 - 100mn Microwarp Drive

so on and so on.


You're indeed totally confused on what meta levels are.
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-08-14 16:30:17 UTC
I don't have a complete answer, but so far I have a naming scheme like this:

Size Meta-word rest-of-name

Size is what slot it fits. ie small, medium, large.
Meta-word is the word describing meta1-4 (Upgraded, Limited, Experimental, Prototype)

Definitely change the icons to include a different colour corner with 1-4 in it, as mentioned above.
The standard meta 0 icon would have no corner.

The meta words definitely need to be changed, but as the dev said, it probably makes sense to get everything consistent and then fix the meta words to make sense.
Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-08-14 16:41:37 UTC
I would go into an other way.

Currently there are three Small Lasers,
Gatling, Dual, Medium.

- First of all, all these Lasers should have the Tag "Light", since they are small weapons.

- Then I would go away from the technical Modal, Anode....
Use Eve Company Names. Like Carthum, Viziam....
In Case of Amarr, we could even use the ruling families. I think it is far more immersion to use stuff that caries the Name of the producer.

- The Meta Level should be used as an Version Number like in good old "Elite".
And for honoring the Grandfather of all Spaceship Combat, let's use "MK..."

- The Number of barrels should be in the name.

Small Viziam Beam Laser MK I.
Small Viziam Beam Laser MK II.
Small Viziam Beam Laser MK III.
Small Viziam Beam Laser MK IV.
Small Viziam Beam Laser MK V.


Small Carthum Dual-Beam Laser MK I
Small Carthum Dual-Beam Laser MK II
....

After Meta V it continues with Military Names, since this Weapons come from LP-Stores.


After that a player has just to know what stat-specialties a "Company Weapon" has, the rest of Information is in the Name, Size, Type and Meta Level.



If there is a Company missing, reorganize an current Company or gift us with a handful new Stations or Station changes.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#70 - 2012-08-14 16:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
I don't mind the longer names, they aren't hard to get the handle on after a bit, but for christ's sake fix the illogical stuff.

Medium Pulse Laser IIs are a small laser? what?

Fix that before you fix anything else.

Also, consistency across sizes.

Make "Prototype 'Arbalest' " The prefix for Meta 4 launchers of every size, be it rocket or torpedo.

Likewise for cannons. "Prototype 'Modulated' Tachyon Cannon" and "Prototype 'Modulated' Small beam laser"

etc etc.
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-08-14 17:40:07 UTC
i'm still lost when i need to choose the good 1mn mwd... the name are not clear at all for me on which one is the better...
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#72 - 2012-08-14 17:45:53 UTC
Logical names are cool and all, just don't make it too bland... I don't want any

You where killed
because of Recon, Force, Caldari.
vyshnegradsky
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#73 - 2012-08-14 17:49:08 UTC
I think the changes would be good, but instead of say, updated small Gatling pulse laser, small Gatling pulse laser would sound better. Does anyone else agree?

This one's a bit over the edge guys.

Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.

  • CCP Falcon
Lord BryanII
#74 - 2012-08-14 17:50:03 UTC
Jovran
Best Friends 5eva
#75 - 2012-08-14 17:58:26 UTC
I like the proposed change but I would make one important change. Place the size descriptor before the meta level descriptor.

Instead of "prototype small gatling pulse laser i", go with "small prototype gatling pulse laser i"

The size descriptor is more important than meta level at first glance.
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#76 - 2012-08-14 18:00:38 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Because to be honest the more you guys agree on that the more weight it will have when we talk internally about it. For example right now we are debating if consistency is better then... well better meta descriptors and possibly doing the weapons in a new fashion. So please keep talking about it and let us know what you think.

Just please, please, PLEASE don't change my target painters to the new system. They're too awesome to be confined by such a limited scheme! (*goes back to fitting PWNAGE*)

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#77 - 2012-08-14 18:07:24 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
FoxFour, what if meta number was added to item icons? :) + your suggested name changes? no one would ever be in doubt about what is better than what...?

This would immediately make a load of naming issues redundant. :O

I have thought about this for many seconds, and think it is an awesome idea. You should do it.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2012-08-14 18:15:30 UTC
Jarin Arenos wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Because to be honest the more you guys agree on that the more weight it will have when we talk internally about it. For example right now we are debating if consistency is better then... well better meta descriptors and possibly doing the weapons in a new fashion. So please keep talking about it and let us know what you think.

Just please, please, PLEASE don't change my target painters to the new system. They're too awesome to be confined by such a limited scheme! (*goes back to fitting PWNAGE*)


Target painters are NOT getting touched. Ever.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-08-14 18:20:15 UTC
hmm. If I may grossly simplify this, then I will. There are laser turrets, then there is weighted and multiplied ones.

Multiplied turrets (quads, dual etc) favours tracking, ROF and fitting reqs in trade of alpha, DPS and range.

Weighted turrets (light, medium, heavy, mega etc) favours DPS, alpha and range in trade of ROF, tracking and heavy fitting reqs.

Meta 1 through 4 nomenclature is largely pointless to fiddle with, I say. It is what it is and that is well enough.

Silly exceptions like "Gatling" and "Tachyon" can be left alone as they have an identity of their own. What needs to be dealt with are the likes of "quad light laser" which means... all at once? It bears the mark of weighted and multiplied at once. It also implies it is a small turret yet it really is a medium one. WTF does it mean. Rename those as quad medium beams. Done. Feel free to leave the snowflakes alone.

Tachyons means something; they are tachies and are kick ass while taking names since forever.
Gatling pulses are just that. Best tracking of laser there is. Nobody cares for those as they don't really deliver anything worth bothering with.
Focused are sort of the same. I guess it's alright to rename as dual mediums pulse/beam?

It knows what you think.
Sun Win
#80 - 2012-08-14 18:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sun Win
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

With all due respect, then what are you looking an opinion on? Because looks like you're just testing how much blow back there will be and a lot less concerned about input on the naming schemes.

Also, as you did on the missile platforms you kept the "flavor" text.

Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher I.

So, it's not like you haven't already messed with your own scheme by incorporating the more interesting old designators as compromises to the situation. You've acknowledged by your own actions that the lack of interesting designators is a negative step and done design compromises to work with it even when it blatantly broke the schemes simplicity.


Because to be honest the more you guys agree on that the more weight it will have when we talk internally about it. For example right now we are debating if consistency is better then... well better meta descriptors and possibly doing the weapons in a new fashion. So please keep talking about it and let us know what you think.


I think that generally these changes are amazing as far as making searching the market more sane, and making it more understandable when you are paging through things to try to figure out what all these modules do. The mental load of mastering the naming of all the current modules is insane and I just spend a lot of time on the 'variations' tab of show info.

However, I also think that we'd lose a lot of flavour if everything went to the prop mod naming conventions for meta levels. So here's the compromise I think you should consider:

Each module class (within reason) gets its own flavourful standardized meta naming convention. So prop mods do "upgraded", 'experimental" etc but lasers get some other meta convention, rails get another one, projectiles another, missiles another, hybrids another. 5 meta classes for 5 weapons systems isn't that hard to master and will keep the world a little more flavourful.

Also: add meta levels to the icons.


CCP FoxFour wrote:
Target painters are NOT getting touched. Ever.


This is correct.