Wormholes

Maybe before they impement these POS changes they should sent out Surveys to CEO's and get a feel from the Low Sec and WH POS Owners and see how many and what kind of respones they get, to see if they are going in the right direction. Rather than trying to disarm the Bomb after its goes off.

I didn't write that Ashi. Lol

That's a bit of a contradiction don't you think?

You can't nerf low class wormholes without encouraging blob warfare in WH space. Is that what you want?

It's not like people are going to say "oh this POS we want to siege is only in a C2 so we don't need as may pilots." on the contrary, they will bring more pilots because the priority is to reinforce the POS as quickly as possible.

I would rather people be able to jump caps into our C2 than be forced to live in a small pos that's going to be blobbed to **** every weekend.

And yes, i realize i'm talking about future changes applying to the existing pos system but we don't have the details for the new pos system yet.



Painting my house was boring but damn does it look pretty now that i've finished. My point being you should select a target based on the potential reward. It might be boring bashing that pos but you shouldn't be doing it if it isn't worth the effort.

POS's definitely shouldn't be designed so blobs can just fly around reinforcing towers for fun.

I haven't been able to read all of the responses yet but here are my general thoughts as someone who spends a lot of time in wormholes.



First, my personal wish list for a POS revamp:

• Personal storage for corporation/alliance members


• Change administration so that a corp can operate multiple corporate offices and multiple POS's and manage permissions independently.


• Allow alliance members to actually use anything other than a ship maintenance array if given permission to do so.
• Make it one structure instead of a bunch of floating things that people can bump into/get stuck on.


• Allow ships to "dock" with the POS instead of having to store/board to change ships.


• Allow pilots to access hangar/storage/fitting like they do when docked in a station.


• Boost refining array efficiency. They're practically worthless.
• Make storage cheap/plentiful. It's silly that we use assembly arrays to store ore because the corporate hangar arrays are too small, for example.

How I would recommend doing it (briefly)

• POS is a single structure that has a fitting screen like a ship does.
• POS "modules" are fitted into the POS and use CPU/Powergrid


• Each "module" expands or adds capability.


• Modules can still be onlined/offlined depending on needs.


• POS fitting space should depend on size, but should have enough slots in the fitting screen to allow owners to fit about twice as much stuff as they could have online simultaneously.
• POS owners should be able to emphasize defenses but at a cost.
• Pilots who are moored should still be able to take manual control of defenses.

Specific issues being discussed:


Docking/Mooring/The Bubble

- I am not a fan of station games. Don't bring those into wormholes.

- I'm ok with losing the bubble as long as ships that have are close to the POS and not moored get some kind of defensive boost. Otherwise it's too easy for a sniper fleet to camp off a POS and primary anyone who unmoors.

- If we lose the bubble we should add a new POS module that works like either an enhanced directional scanner or a deep space scan probe (the latter can use some CPU/powergrid to balance it out). This lets pilots see what's around them before leaving protection.

- If we lose the bubble add new defensive modules or make existing defensive modules cheaper. One of the purposes of the bubble right now is fleet staging, so that pilots can get into the right ships and form up before getting into combat.



POS Sieges and "Evictions"

Do not remove the ability to anchor a large POS in a Class 1/2 wormhole. This is for two reasons:

1. Small and medium POS's simply can't store enough stuff in their current format to make it worthwhile to use them for a corp that is living in a wormhole and actively doing any mining whatsoever.

2. Small and medium POS's can be torn down far too quickly/easily with a small fleet of subcapital ships to be effective for anyone trying to live in a wormhole. It takes longer to reinforce a large POS with a subcap fleet, but it can be done very easily in matter of a few hours by a determined attacker, which still gives the defenders time to try and get people online to respond.

To help explain my perspective, I see Class 1 and 2 wormholes as the entry point for hi-sec mining/missioning corps that want to get some of the risk/reward of nullsec but don't really want to try to deal with the absolutely ridiculous politics of nullsec. These players are taking their first steps into more challenging areas of the game, and they're accepting a much higher level of risk of losing ships both in PvE and PvP. If you make it easier for some group of people to come around, blow up their house, and loot all their stuff, those corps will simply stay in hisec because they won't consider it worth the risk, and that will just lead to more stagnation in all areas of the game. As evidence I'll point to the number of dead towers that we routinely find in Class 1s and Class 2s, where the people who owned them simply gave up after losing a bunch of ships.

Of course, if you don't believe that EVE would benefit from having more players out in nullsec and in wormholes and blowing each other up and having fun doing it, that's your prerogative. But from my standpoint we want to encourage people to try out the cool stuff in EVE and help them make the transition out of carebearhood without scaring them off entirely.

Even with the current system it is trivially easy for a determined attacker, once they find a way in, to stage a siege or harassment campaign against a group of defenders in a Class 1 and either take their tower down or simply starve them out until they give up and leave. Yes, it takes planning and organization and it can go on for weeks depending on how well prepared and organized both sides are - but if you're fighting for control of territory you should be willing to make that kind of commitment to it in my opinion. If you want to own a system or kick someone out of one, you should be willing to commit time and resources to it, and it should not be the sort of thing that you do over the course of a single weekend. That's not what EVE is about, in my opinion.

Corps that move into Class 1s and 2s eventually outgrow them or at least start branching out into higher-class wormholes. They learn the basics and then they want to go after the bigger and better signatures and anomalies that bring in more ISK. When they do this they accept an even greater level of risk and they have to be even more organized to be successful. This brings the people already out there more opponents to fight (or potentially allies to befriend or recruit). If we change that paradigm, a year from now how many people will be in wormholes at all?


That's my two cents (for now).

Quotes condensed due to forum limitation.


1a) There are a number of methods; ensuring they can't fuel their POS, calling in friends, podding them all back to k-space, etc. Pretending that just because they have a death/dickstar they're invincible is no exuse to limit POS size in smaller holes.

Your argument for limiting tower size in sub-C5's based on a 5-man corp taking an established hole is a bit... weak. A bit more objectivity would be helpful if your intention is to improve EVE. You didn't need an answer to that. You just chose to ignore anything that would go against your POV.

2a) Fair? It's only unfair once you ignore the fact that evictions happen regardless of WH class/POS size. As noted above; removing someone from a WH doesn't have to involve the POS defenses at all.

3a) When people move into C1-C4's it's usually not because they assume less risk. They do so for PvP/ISK per hour/HS-LS-Null accessibility, etc. The only people moving into lower class holes for less risk are probably moving in for the first time. They learn quickly, though... probably faster than those moving straight to a C5 due to the higher traffic.


Two step, you were elected in hopes that our voices, through you, would lead to the betterment of W-Space as a whole and all of the corps within... not just AHARM and C5/C6 dwellers.




4a) - It would make no sense (from a game lore perspective) for a POS to prevent you from docking while aggressed as you own it in total and there is no CONCORD connection in w-space. Either way, this could easily be avoided with the proximity-based FF if CCP is intent on dropping the current FF.

5a) - So does that mean "Let's wait until after it becomes a problem?"




1 - Limited usefulness in most circumstances. Not necessary.
2 - Only slightly more useful than #1.
3 - See #3.
4 - No thanks. At least in the POS I can see the bottom of my ship. Also, I'd rather see threats, d-scan, probe, etc. than POS walls.
5 - Personally I'd rather see W.I. Sleeper sites than W.I.P.O.S. Either way, there are more important things.
6 - Sweet!... but can it be done with mooring (Proximity FF) instead of docking?
7 - Useful, but not worth docking.
8 - Sweet!... but can it be done with mooring (Proximity FF) instead of docking?
9 - Sweet!... but not worth docking.
10 - Sweet!... but not worth docking.
11 - Mandatory and should be done regardless of docking, mooring, whatever. It's ridiculous as is.
12 - Useful, but not worth docking.


The issues that should be addressed first are Segmented Storage (Alliance, Corp, Personal, etc.), Ship Fitting (T3 subs), Granular Access Permissions, Containers, POS Gunnery UI, Repackaging, and Services Access (UI for attached POS modules such as Labs, Refineries, etc.)... roughly in that order.

IF CCP decides to limit POS sizes in sub-C5's/add unneccesary shinies/make POS's anchorable anywhere it should be done after the effects of the other changes have had time to play out.

Interestingly enough, you make my case for me, only holding onto the weak point that blindly finding a particular C6 is easier than blindly finding any other w-space system. It's naive to assume your attackers don't already have scouts in your system; most of the popular alliances already have scouts in them.


It takes an average of a week to get a decent-sized capital fleet into a C6, and there is little or no chance of an ambush with that fleet. Meanwhile....


Defenders already have a large capital defense fleet.

Attackers need to get a fleet in, survive against the initial defensive fleet, and then control the static long enough vs subsequent defensive assaults to get more (subcap) ships in, if there is even a route. The initial fleet may need to collapse your static a few times before they can find a route in for subcap support ships. While attackers are trying to chain-collapse another route into your system, so are your allies chain-collapsing for the defense.


Now compare this with inserting forces into a C2 with static Hisec. I can pick and choose the time to put those forces into your system; I will obviously pick your least busy time and insert dozens or more ships before you even wake up.


What makes a C6 dangerous (or "deadly") isn't the fact that CCP says it's dangerous or deadly. It doesn't depend on whether you have wormholes through which capitals can jump. It depends on how easy it is for an attacker to insert hostile forces into your system while preventing you from doing the same.

Because of the ease in which it is possible to flood a C2/HS system with invading forces compared to the difficulty in doing the same thing in a C6, I maintain that a C2/HS/? is more dangerous to live in than a C6/C6.

This would be an even bigger issue if you only allow medium POS's in C1-C4 space. The only surviving corps/alliances will be the ones that can field large numbers. Those 5 man corps being discussed will be at a bigger disadvantage.

I can't believe I have seen only 1 person mention this and it was ignored.

In WH space we use stealth bombers pretty much universally. They're great. No FF mean you can be bombed in your pos though. Not so great.

In a hauler working on reactions? Bombed.

In POS preparing to run noms/roam? Bombed.

Anchoring/unanchoring new modules/guns? Bombed.

Log on? Bombed.

Undock? Bombed.

Sneeze? Bombed.

Logged off? Probably still bombed for good measure.

Whereas a good bomber can wreak havoc in a WH already(and that's a good thing) it takes some skill. With no FF a few bombers can just sit at a perch and bomb everything that moves and most stuff that doesn't, completely locking a corp inside their pos(or out). A decent bomber can be prealigned and launch a bomb before something bigger than a frig even had the time to align and warp off if it undocked or by using dscan could easily launch a bomb timed to land at the same time as say, your pod as you warp to your pos. Then you wake up in kspace 30 jumps from your nearest entrance. I'm not sure how you would get around this. Some sort of anti-bomb automated defense system maybe? Like a defender missile pos gun? Without some defense mechanism against bombs wh pos's will be little more than a graveyard.

His basic point still applies though. I'm really looking forward to a group of ships undocking to try to defend their no-FF POS during an active siege. Them bumping each other around, beeing incapable of moving into sensible attack positions, bombs flying at the group left and right while the spidered battleships and drakes fling whatever ordonance they have at the tightly-knit ratking, which tries to untangle itself at the only undock point of the POS, doing nothing else but creating fancy explosions. Funtimes.

QFT