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Ore Imbalance
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Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#1 - 2012-08-14 07:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Tyr
Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

If all ores being of equal value, and high sec ores being worth just as much as nullsec ores, is the vision for mining I suggest removing all the various ores and replacing it all with "RockOre". And instead of using different minerals, players can build all ships with 1 material - "RockOre". Real nice and simplestupid.

Ridiculous right? I suspect most Eve players aren't interested in something quite so dumbed down.

Unless you happen to be in a -1.0 truesec system that spawns arkonor naturally, you are just as well off mining in empire where you can AFK (something you can’t do in null). And no, the industry upgrades with hidden belts don’t make up for it. e.g. The level 1 upgrade contains mostly Spodumain, which is among the least valuable ores in the game (based on Jita prices at the time of this writing). So what’s there to look forward to for the upgrade - cockite and bistot worth less than veldspar and a couple roids with arkonor and mercoxit.

In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2012-08-14 09:06:45 UTC
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining


I LOL'd so hard.
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#3 - 2012-08-14 09:43:21 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining


I LOL'd so hard.


U Mad bro?

:p
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#4 - 2012-08-14 09:51:07 UTC
Operation shovel lots of miners and care bears, toss in a pinch of kitchen-sink defense fleets and viola!

Providence.

Then slather the place in roaming gangs and afk cloakers.


However, for those living way up north or west and barricaded behind 50 blue systems, miners happily slap lasers onto large rocks and go make a sandwich.

It's not that null sec rocks are not worth anything, it's that there is so much of null where it's so safe to mine that it may as well be highsec.



TLDR: supply and demand is a *****, get over it.
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#5 - 2012-08-14 10:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dasola
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#6 - 2012-08-14 10:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..



Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#7 - 2012-08-14 11:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Tyr
Anhenka wrote:
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..



Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.


As I said, nullsec mining is more effort. When was the last time you heard an empire miner complaining about JFs and logistic POS for their routes from hedion university to amarr ? In fact I suspect most of you dont even know what a logistic POS is!

BTW - Did you read this part? "Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. "

Stuff be broken.
Inquisitor Tyr
VEN0M0US.
Out of the Blue.
#8 - 2012-08-14 11:20:13 UTC
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..


0.0 mining is safer than empire huh. What system you mining in m8? Link here plz.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#9 - 2012-08-14 12:08:16 UTC
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..

I didn't go to nullsec to mine veldspar. CCP put ABCM in nullsec for a reason.

We'll see if the market adjusts though. I don't think it will. Mining in null is vastly different than highsec, which is stupid easy.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-08-14 13:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarik Olecar
Incursion and Mission Runners whine because LP is near worthless.
Manufacturers whine because there's hardly any profit on T1 Ammo and Ships.
Pirates whine because there are no more targets to shoot.
Null miners whine because...

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Vrul Alfar
All the Good Ticker Names are Taken
#11 - 2012-08-14 13:33:30 UTC
Im still trying to understand what everyone wants. People want CCP to stay away from the economy and let things be what they are, then people want CCP to come and adjust prices to make them more ISK. If you want CCP to give you ISK, buy PLEX with money and sell it on the market. Me personally, I prefer CCP to keep its fingers out of the economy and let the players keep running it. So in the end, if you have problems with ore prices, talk to the people that are paying high prices for high sec ores and low prices for null ores. But personally I want the players, not CCP, setting market prices and controlling its fluctuations. I am sorry you are sad your ISK/hr has been messed with, but you need to bark up someone else's tree, not CCP's.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#12 - 2012-08-14 13:46:46 UTC
Nullsec mining is safer than highsec
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2012-08-14 14:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Trouble is that nullsec has nearly zero industrial capacity, when compared to hisec.

Hisec station -- 50 MFG slots. You can have 1+ of these per system.
Nullsec station (outpost, non-drug base (source)) - 2 (Minmatar/Caldari), 4 (Gallente), 20 (Amarr). You can have ONLY ONE per system.

So, what this does is make everything (in null) work out of POS. It's *FAR* easier to export zyd/mega/etc and import ships (or compressed minerals) than build it there. If there was a larger industrial capacity in null, we wouldn't see as much of the minerals being exported, since they could be more easily used where they're obtained...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jason TheDragon
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-14 14:13:24 UTC
Welcome to the pitfalls of making your money selling market commodities. You want a fixed isk/hr activity, go rat or run missions.
Aud Actori
Ciomach Oibriche
#15 - 2012-08-14 15:30:06 UTC
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?


If everyone in null-sec & wh's stopped mining A,B & C, I suspect you'd see a jump in prices.

Read http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp. Twisted
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#16 - 2012-08-14 15:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelius Valentius
This Post... it is strong in the fail... *recycle process activated* ... *whooosh*... the air now free of whine.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-08-14 15:59:28 UTC
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.


It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing.

People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#18 - 2012-08-14 16:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Idris Helion wrote:
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.


It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing.

People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.

But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well.

Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Arec Bardwin
#19 - 2012-08-14 16:52:16 UTC
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Ore Imbalance
It's called supply and demand.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-08-14 17:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Zifrian wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.


It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing.

People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.

But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well.

Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?


Mining in null isn't that dangerous if you're behind a blue firewall. All you have to do is tank belt rats. Your corp/alliance may extract higher taxes than in high, so there's that.

But even so, hisec mining is a sucker's game unless you can do it on a large scale. Solo mining is a sucker's game ISK-wise, which is why most miners either have alts or work in crews. ISK/hr minig solo isn't horrible now that the barge patch has gone in, but you can still make more ISH/hr doing almost anything else.

Mineral prices aren't the end of the story on mining being profitable. You have to factor in logistics, sunk costs, and opportunity costs. Consider: even in hisec, you have to get your ore or minerals to a trade hub to get the best price. That usually means at least a maxed-out indy, if not a freighter. So then there are transport costs. If you really want to maximize your price, you have to set up sell orders rather than just taking the highest buy orders, which also takes time.

There's a reason that CCP stuck the high-ends out in null. Even spod, as lousy as it is isk-wise, can be profitable if you have the right strategy. (Mining by contract, for example -- I've mined lots of omber by contract because manufacturers need the isogen. I sell a bit cheaper than market but don't have to haul or deal with transport logistics; my clients get a steady source of isogen at a good price.)
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