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[Winter] Exploration Frigate Rebalance

First post
Author
Bentakhar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-08-14 08:27:06 UTC
These changes sound interesting!

Is the imicus getting a hull redesign with the winter expansion? It needs it badly Bear

Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
#62 - 2012-08-14 10:49:19 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
Maybe a boost to the ability to succeed at the actual hacking, salvaging and analysis instead of a range bonus. The drones make sense to me as my exploration ships have usually depended heavily on drones but it does seem a bit too homogenous. Overall, I like the changes.

Pretty much my thoughts - a bonus to success chance rather than range would be more useful.

These ships will be cool for high sec exploration, and 1/10 and even 2/10 combat sites perhaps.

On a related note, I'd like to see some larger ships get scanning bonuses too.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#63 - 2012-08-14 11:17:06 UTC
Hey CCP Fozzie.

You're doing an epic job. Keep it up.

Only feedback I have is that the 50% range bonus is a bit meh. It won't really see any use as these things will be data scanning at < 2500m to scoop and run.

I can't really think of any other role bonus that would be useful without overpowering though What?

Maybe push the data scanner cycle time bonus into the role bonus and give the ships a mobility bonus of some kind.
Mobility bonus per level options are:
-10% MWD capacitor penalty
10% MWD/AB duration
-10% MWD/AB capacitor use
5% agility

Risky ones:
10% Max ship velocity
10% AB speed boost
5% MWD speed boost

Aaewen Hrothgarson
eXtreme Co
SLYCE Pirates
#64 - 2012-08-14 11:19:35 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
I think most pilots benefit from being able to control scout drones at a decent level at various points in their careers.
Eventually, yes. They are great in a BS or a BC. My problem is that this ship has more drones than a Caracal, the next step in the line of Caldari missile ships. That SP would be better placed in missiles for a young player.

There also is a question of scaling. Drones do not scale well with Caldari. If they make exploration a line of ships, then an exploration drone cruiser makes even less sense for the Caldari. I would like to see exploration become more than what it is. It should be a viable alternative to missions.

aoeu Itonula wrote:
Curious about the logic of keeping the Imicus (and then the Helios) to only two highs. Really cripples the ships.
That I can explian: the Imicus has 4 drones.

All of the others have 3 drones and 3 highs.
All of them have 6 total offensive... thingies. o.O?

As for the Helios, it and T2 ships will be tweaked (at least slightly) down the line. T1 needs to be first though.



Apart from that i doubt that one light drone compensates for a weapon mount, the OP states ONE turret (no launcher) for the Inmicus ...

So, even if one weapon mount is equivalenced by a light drone, I'd like to see the "limping man" with a full flight of them. Also, as stated by many before me. The role "bonus" is far from being a bonus.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2012-08-14 11:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Good morning everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, it's been great to see so much interest in these ships.

I'm gonna address a few of the themes I'm seeing in the feedback as best I can (sorry about the wall of text):

A lot of you have been mentioning that the role bonus to codebreaker and analyzer optimal is of limited use. The bonus was intended to be a quite minor convenience effect that was noticeable but not too powerful, with a secondary purpose of helping reinforce the idea in new players minds that these ships can be used for hacking and archaeology. We feel the bonus meets both of these goals fairly well, although we are open to changing it as we go forward. I however do not expect that it will be replaced with something as powerful as a tanking bonus or miniprofession success chance bonus.

On a similar topic, many of you have pointed out that a ROF bonus to the miniprofession modules is less powerful than a success chance bonus. I completely agree with that, however we decided early in the design that there were already so many methods to gain success chance bonuses that adding another would make too much of the content trivial.

On the subject of the bonus to probe scan strength I tend to agree with those of you who have suggested that it can be increased without stepping on the toes of Covert Ops ships. We'll take a close look at the options for increasing that bonus somewhat and let you know what we decide.

Many people have mentioned cloaks in their feedback, either requesting a cloak bonus of some kind or discussing how the two highslots on the Imicus hurt its ability to fit a cloak. We do not consider cloaking to be part of the core use for these ships and therefore we're not likely to add a cloak bonus. Keep in mind that these are not covert ops ships, they are updates to the tech one probing frigates all of whom currently have just two highslots. Cloaks are of course an option, but we do not expect the lack of a third high to be a significant blow to the Imicus.

On the subject of tanking, I understand that the proposed design does clash with the current descriptions of the ships ingame but we do plan to change those descriptions and a fast exploration ship that sacrifices armor and shield generators in order to fit in more scientific gear and extend range seems to me to be just as valid of a sci-fi trope as a heavily defended support vessel. We may have some room to increase HP a bit, but I do not expect it will hit the EHP of a combat frig.

Some of you have voiced concerns that a drone focused vessel for Caldari pilots skews skill training, but since the skills invested will be in scout drones I expect they will be useful skillpoints throughout the pilot's career. If these ships used heavy drones or sentry drones which have a skillbook of their own that Caldari ships rarely use, we would have considered that a problem. As it is training for three light drones does not seem like wasted SP to me (and my first character was Caldari (mission running in a missile Ferox like a boss)).
I also do not believe that ships like these detract from the power or usefulness of the Gallente race in any way. Gallente remain the masters of drones, with Amarr and Minmatar behind them and Caldari in the rear. Introducing ships with unbonused light drones for each faction does not take anything away from the Gallente race, and all of you Gallente drone purists are going to have something to cheer about in my next frigate balance thread, I promise.

Finally there has been a lot of excitement about the concept of a pure science vessel. I mentioned it in the OP because I do really like the idea and like that these ships could someday serve as a stepping stone. That being said we have no hard plans for a ship of that nature so I can't promise we'll make one and if we do it will likely not be for a while. Details like whether it would be a cruiser or frigate, racial variants or a single SOE ship are all fun to brainstorm about but I can't provide any answers because we simply do not have any design planned at this time.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-08-14 11:41:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


A lot of you have been mentioning that the role bonus to codebreaker and analyzer optimal is of limited use. The bonus was intended to be a quite minor convenience effect that was noticeable but not too powerful, with a secondary purpose of helping reinforce the idea in new players minds that these ships can be used for hacking and archaeology. We feel the bonus meets both of these goals fairly well, although we are open to changing it as we go forward. I however do not expect that it will be replaced with something as powerful as a tanking bonus or miniprofession success chance bonus.


So essentially the role bonus is merely a message that says "this ship is for hacking & archaeology".
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2012-08-14 11:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


A lot of you have been mentioning that the role bonus to codebreaker and analyzer optimal is of limited use. The bonus was intended to be a quite minor convenience effect that was noticeable but not too powerful, with a secondary purpose of helping reinforce the idea in new players minds that these ships can be used for hacking and archaeology. We feel the bonus meets both of these goals fairly well, although we are open to changing it as we go forward. I however do not expect that it will be replaced with something as powerful as a tanking bonus or miniprofession success chance bonus.


So essentially the role bonus is merely a message that says "this ship is for hacking & archaeology".


And something that makes life a bit more convenient. You can activate the modules a bit earlier and then move in to pick up the loot as the module cycles. It's supposed to be nice but not to bring down the house.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#68 - 2012-08-14 11:49:50 UTC
I think the role bonus is an awesome amazing bonus. It lets you hack from outside the annoying LCO/asteroid group
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#69 - 2012-08-14 12:16:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

(decently layed out design goals one can work with)


thx for your answers. much appreciated :)

but hints about revamped ewar, some unpublished ideas for combat frigs and now awesome new gallente drone-frig.
you're such a tease and you know how to build up expectations... ;P
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-08-14 12:21:58 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
aoeu Itonula wrote:
Curious about the logic of keeping the Imicus (and then the Helios) to only two highs. Really cripples the ships.


With the Helios specifically, it kinda depends on what you're going for right? The only thing that the Helios can't really do is fit cloak + prober + cov cyno. But if that isn't what you're after, it makes a fantastic frigate with a great slot layout...

-Liang


The point is if every race is getting a exploration ship then the Gallente are not. Already we tell noobs don't train for the Helios because it can't fit a cloak + probe + other high slot (salvager, cyno, etc...). If we aren't going to be using the Imicus as a exploration ship then it should be removed from the game. A great slot layout with gimped stats doesn't make it a great frigate.

Please drop the drone bay down to 15m3 and move the mid slot to a high slot.


Yep, I'm starting to see a really ugly trend here. First, among the Electronic Warfare frigates, Gallente are the only race that don't get a "real one" with two EWAR bonuses, we only get one. And now this.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#71 - 2012-08-14 12:43:26 UTC
Give 'em an innate warp core stab strength of one point. Encourage rookies into lowsec exploration? :D

(Give 'em a gas harvesting bonus?)
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#72 - 2012-08-14 12:51:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


... stuff...



It all sounds logical to me but I now agree with earlier comments that boosting the passive part of the tank even more is a valid design choice for this style of ship. Weak in combat doesn't have to mean paper thin as well.

_ _

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#73 - 2012-08-14 13:15:50 UTC
I seriously disagree with the idea that these frigs should be limited to hisec. It's vital for EVE to do every little thing possible to encourage new players to leave the hisec starter systems as early as possibly, and out there you want a cloak on exploration vessels.

Not being able to fit the exploration hislot trio of cloak, probes and salvager seriously limits the usability of Imicus and Helios for exploration. Please reconsider this.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

I also do not believe that ships like these detract from the power or usefulness of the Gallente race in any way. Gallente remain the masters of drones, with Amarr and Minmatar behind them and Caldari in the rear. Introducing ships with unbonused light drones for each faction does not take anything away from the Gallente race, and all of you Gallente drone purists are going to have something to cheer about in my next frigate balance thread, I promise.


The problem in giving all ships drones and still claiming that Gallente are the "drone masters" is the fact that at best this mastery is only evidenced by 50% more dps and HP on the same set of combat drones, on a few selected ships.

Flight of Warrior IIs on Cane: 80.4 dps, Myrmidon 121 dps.

In case of all other drones, Gallente ships are (for some reason) treated just like all other ships, ECM drones work just well on all ships- except that the so-called drone boats lose much more dps than the other ships when using EWAR drones.

So why not re-establish the drone mastery, and extend the drone dmg bonus to cover all types of drone effects?

.

Grayn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-08-14 13:16:51 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Give 'em an innate warp core stab strength of one point. Encourage rookies into lowsec exploration? :D

(Give 'em a gas harvesting bonus?)


This!

Really, the range increase simply looks useless to me....
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#75 - 2012-08-14 13:54:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
I seriously disagree with the idea that these frigs should be limited to hisec. It's vital for EVE to do every little thing possible to encourage new players to leave the hisec starter systems as early as possibly, and out there you want a cloak on exploration vessels.


This, really. All ships should be viable outside of highsec. If it can cloak (even just a T1 cloak) and fit combat probes, that's good enough to fill a scout role in a roaming gank squad. Exploration outside of highsec, however, remains a serious problem that's going to keep these ships from filling their natural role. It's an issue with covops ships, too. Finding a site is useless if you can't do anything in the site as well.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#76 - 2012-08-14 13:57:26 UTC
Ive never fit a cloak on an exploration ship. Doing so gimps you when people come to fight. Its a bad habit for rookies to get into.
Letrange
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-08-14 14:38:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Good morning everyone.
Many people have mentioned cloaks in their feedback, either requesting a cloak bonus of some kind or discussing how the two highslots on the Imicus hurt its ability to fit a cloak. We do not consider cloaking to be part of the core use for these ships and therefore we're not likely to add a cloak bonus. Keep in mind that these are not covert ops ships, they are updates to the tech one probing frigates all of whom currently have just two highslots. Cloaks are of course an option, but we do not expect the lack of a third high to be a significant blow to the Imicus.


umm... a few comments here

1) these were great ships for throwing an extra alt or two in a cloaked/probe launcher fit one of these to leave in an inhabited wormhole system to be able to find it again (if for example your main gets ganked and you need to find your way back to your whomhole home).

2) They ARE the precursors to cov-ops. You guys did a great service to newbies with your attack frigate changes (even if you didn't realize it). Most player who go from standard T1 frigates to interceptors need a few weeks to a month or so to adapt to the way you're supposed to fly these ships. The new T1 attack frigates now have performance envelopes that actually resemble true interceptors and so can and should be flown like them. This should allow for a smooth transition to interceptors when a newer player gets to that level. It would be nice if you could do the same service for the transition from T1 scanning frigate to the cov-ops.

One suggestion here would be a role bonus to remove or reduce the movement penalties of the non-cov-ops cloaks. That way the newer players could get used to moving around on grid in a cloaked vessel at speed without the OP of being able to warp cloaked.


Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#78 - 2012-08-14 14:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Actually. A gas harvester bonus on these ships would make a lot of sense seems as Ladar is all just a part of exploration.

It seems a shame that these ships would simply pass over some of the exploration sites. Yes, the gravimetric sites would get ignored too but they are a little special to mining. Gas mining and exploration go hand in hand.

But if you have intentions on making a dedicated gas harvester just forget about it
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-08-14 15:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vakr Onzo
CCP Fozzie wrote:
And something that makes life a bit more convenient. You can activate the modules a bit earlier and then move in to pick up the loot as the module cycles. It's supposed to be nice but not to bring down the house.
So then why not have the Role Bonus have to do something with the Probe Launchers? Some suggested reduced CPU need for probe launchers (aimed at fitting Expanded Probe Launcher) and what not. I think it would be good to have that type of bonus and it let the older players fit Expanded probe Launcher for deep space probes which they have skills for, and let the new rookies have a bit of wiggle room in fitting modules within their exploration frigate's cpu limit.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#80 - 2012-08-14 15:30:20 UTC
I think you are underestimating the importance of that third high slot. Ask yourself what advantage does not having it give and why wouldnt a new player just train for one of the other races?