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[Winter] Exploration Frigate Rebalance

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#41 - 2012-08-13 22:57:15 UTC
The "50% range bonus" is quite obviously "per level". This means that you can start hacking as you approach the can at, er, 17.5 km, so when you get to scoop range from the can, it's already open and you can grab the contents and go.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#42 - 2012-08-13 23:03:18 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The "50% range bonus" is quite obviously "per level".


It's a role bonus. It's not per level.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#43 - 2012-08-13 23:17:17 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The "50% range bonus" is quite obviously "per level".


It's a role bonus. It's not per level.


This would be a stupid bonus. Hence, it must be per level.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#44 - 2012-08-13 23:28:50 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The "50% range bonus" is quite obviously "per level".


It's a role bonus. It's not per level.


This would be a stupid bonus. Hence, it must be per level.

Heh, you forgot which site you're posting on. And it would be just as bad per level only the other way.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#45 - 2012-08-13 23:35:01 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One thing to think about is an exploration frig can only make use of 2 of the 6 site types: Mag and radar. The grav, ladar, combat and wormhole sites will not be accessible content to a frigate. (Unless the pilot likes exploding). Although the changes to the frigates are nice, they do not address this one issue. For a new explorer it is frustrating. Scanning down site after site that you cannot do anything with is not good game play. (Ive gone to using a T3 so I can do the combat sites, and skilling to use deep space probes so I can sort out most of the sites I do not want).

The changes needed to address this are not changes to the frigates though, but to exploration itself. It sure would be nice to have something like the old observer probe back. It gave you absolutely no information on site location, but it would tell you all the site types.

Or if the site type was shown at lower signal strength. And wormholes had a different type than combat sites (Say "Unstable").

Another thing to consider is low, null and W space operations. There you need 3 high slots: Cloak, probe launcher, and salvager. Not all these frigs have 3 highs. The result will again be: You scan a site and find its non-accessible content.
Edit: The salvager drone actually may resolve this issue, Load in one of those and you can live with 2 highs.


This really is a big, big issue. "Science vessels" (love, love the idea btw) should be able to do stuff with all of the anomalies. The gameplay is quite broken at the moment. Needing to switch to one ship to scan a site down and then switch to another ship to run the site goes against everything else that any other noob would need to hear ...ie: "Figure out what ship you like and specialize in it." There really isn't such a thing as a good "exploration" or "science" ship currently. Perhaps the sites should be less about combat and more about some sort of actual sciencey-content? The people who want to fly these ships are the same people who really want to feel as though they're in command of the Enterprise, boldly going where no one has gone before etc etc.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-08-14 00:00:51 UTC
I think we need to keep mind that most Hack-cans etc have triggers that spawn extra NPCs. Usually, you try to hack and then you get a colorful text in local stating "omg, defenders suddenly emerge, do something!".

So. You blow them up -- Great, now you can hack from several kilometers... but you still have to loot from 2.5km range. Imo, the hack/scan strength is fine.

Time and Range is sort of meeeeeh.
I really think the cloaking stuff is ideal.

I know people won't like the next one much but,
maybe give them aside to that scan strength bonus
- that cloak velocity (and hopefully targeting) bonus
- and as a role bonus: bonus to the race-specific support modules as to what the Support Cruisers like Scythe etc have.

Some Role Bonus buffs like;
Probe -> extra range/beef for Sensor Links
Heron -> I don't know, slight beef to Remote/Projected ECCM strength
Magnate -> bonus to range/magnitude of Remote Capacitor Transporter and armor repairer
Imicus -> bonus to Remote Sensor Booster

And of course science ship tank ;D. It is not asking for much because the ships are not combat vessels.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-08-14 00:01:26 UTC
as said the range bonus as not much use here...
you should add salvager and/or tractor beam range if you want an use ; after all a noob can't really afford a noctis, it's way too expensive, and so a little bonus here could be useful.

but well anyway, i'm glad enough to see magnate with +2 med and +1 low, my low skills alts use it for probing/cyno, and it will help ^^
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-08-14 00:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Belshazzar Babylon
OMG I've been hoping for a science vessel for a while. I'm happy to know it might one day be real.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#49 - 2012-08-14 01:16:37 UTC
Since the science vessel has been brought up multiple times and these frigates are basically the same ship, have you thought about scrapping them and having a dedicated exploration frigate? You are already doing this with the mining frigate so you have already set a precedence for it. It would make the rebalancing easier as all you have to do is design one ship.

I know what you are already going to say, "blah blah blah art department blah blah blah overworked blah blah blah". Sounds like a lame excuse to me for giving is a new ship!
Cheekybiatch
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-08-14 01:21:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello again spacefriends! Today I'm going to share with you our current plans for the tech one probing frigates, coming this winter.

These ships are currently used for Cyno lighting more than anything else, and we want to build their role as frigates for exploring deep space (especially to provide more interesting exploration gameplay for new players). We hope to see them being used for solo highsec exploration for newer players, or to support the combat ships in an exploration group in wormholes or lawless space. They're getting bonuses to hacking, archeology and salvaging so you can use them to both probe and run mini-profession sites.
Their combat ability has also been directed at drones instead of weak weapon bonuses. We've designed them to be able to kill the rats in highsec mini-profession sites, although a combat frig will clear them faster. The ship isn't directly intended for a pvp role, so the ehp remains quite low and we skewed the fittings towards CPU and away from PG. Best way to kill the rats with this ship is fit a light active tank, drop drones and kite.

We wanted these ships to feel like an expedition vessel for newer players, something that can run sites independently and with enough cargo, no ammo use and extra dronespace to take long journeys away from their home base (even if they stay in highsec). If the style of ship is embraced then these could possibly serve as stepping stones into some kind of tech two "Science vessel" in the future.

Here's our current versions of the ships:

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+2), 3 L, 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 25 PWG (+3), 220 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 4 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 turrets (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 23 PWG (+3), 250 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 40(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 24 PWG (+4), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)

Let us know what you think!


Honestly there is a really good reason people use them as cyno ships and not exploration.

They are paper thin, have no range are cheap and have a big cargo.

If you want to make them exploration type ships give them the old bomber bonuses to cloaking the speed, lock delay and maybe something to let them fit them.

There is little to no point in a ship you want if they can't hide when a mouse creeps past and then they suddenly explode because of some tiny specs of space dust.

P.S. Drones aren't not best idea :/
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-08-14 02:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Deena Amaj
Here's a link to my Science Corvette idea I wrote a long while ago.

Not entirely the same as the ones mentioned by the devs. Disregarding the combat factor, maybe there is something someone can work with, I don't know. No worries, just a page long.

I imagined a cloned frigate hull that had several modules with science-skilled (and PI ammo/fuel) aspects to act as decloakers.


For instance the use of single, dumb fire torpedoes alike bombs that fly a distance, do KABOOM (no dmg) and possible decloak anything within that area of effect. Probe-torp must have a long rate-of-fire as well as reload cycle.
Nonetheless, this idea and post of mine is not a solution as it only makes sense if that bunch of modules were to exist.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Makalie
Frenzied Faoladh
#52 - 2012-08-14 04:40:01 UTC
Carry these drone bonuses over to my Cheetah and we can call it good.

I hope you brought enough ammunition.
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#53 - 2012-08-14 04:56:00 UTC
Great ninja salvaging ships.

PIZZA CEO
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-08-14 05:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: St Mio
Yay exploration! \o/

I'm glad to see you're looking at the exploration frigs, and there's been some interesting suggestions so far, so I'd like to add one no one else has mentioned:

Instead of a range bonus to Analyzer/Codebreaker, why not a fitting bonus that reduces their 20 CPU fitting reqs? On ships with only 200~250ish CPU, shaving off up to 40 would let them fit more tank/more damage modules etc.

Edit: Well scratch that idea, they seem to have more than enough CPU anyway.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#55 - 2012-08-14 06:45:07 UTC
Cool, why not give all ships from all races big drone bays so that Gallente loses it's only special thing it had left.

.
Nanoscale
Browncoat Industries
#56 - 2012-08-14 07:09:11 UTC
Personally I'd rather see a role bonus for CPU reduction on probe launchers than range for your codebreaking/analyzing modules. As other people have stated, you still need to get within 2.5km to pick up whatever you're cracking, and with a 6km range on T2 codebreaker/analyzers there's no need for 9km.

All that said, I would love to use these for the new purpose as a strictly codebreaker/analyzer ship, but a Blackbird/Falcon is still better (at least for my niche purposes). Any chance of a T2 ship, or a Noctis-like ship with this focus coming?
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#57 - 2012-08-14 07:20:38 UTC
Nanoscale wrote:
Personally I'd rather see a role bonus for CPU reduction on probe launchers than range for your codebreaking/analyzing modules. As other people have stated, you still need to get within 2.5km to pick up whatever you're cracking, and with a 6km range on T2 codebreaker/analyzers there's no need for 9km.

All that said, I would love to use these for the new purpose as a strictly codebreaker/analyzer ship, but a Blackbird/Falcon is still better (at least for my niche purposes). Any chance of a T2 ship, or a Noctis-like ship with this focus coming?


I'd second that, as the expanded probe launchers can take up a lot of cpu on ships that could be tasked more usefully elsewhere.

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-08-14 07:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: St Mio
I was going to suggest CPU reduction for the Expanded Probe Launcher (that 220 CPU for the T1 version uses up almost all your CPU) so that you can use Deep Space Probes, but then again new players (which is what these frigs are aimed at) wouldn't have Astrometrics V to be able to use them then...

Re: drone bays, I think that only the Imicus and Magnate should really be focused on them, your progression would be something like:
Imicus > Vexor > Ishtar
Magnate > Arby > Pilgrim (thanks Kuehnelt :D)

The Heron could be a stepping stone to Drake/Tengu if it had a really high Light Missile bonus (along with the pending +10% damamge/ 50->40m sig res buffs).

I'm not sure what you'd do with Probe though... some Minmatar ships do use missiles as a split weapons system but I wouldn't expect new explorers to be training missiles if they're going to be doing Minmatar exploration in the long run (since they'd probably want to go for a Loki as a long term goal)

Also for shield tanking these frigs, you're looking at a mid for your AB, and two for your Codebreaker/Analyzer. This means only the Heron can really fit a (one slot!) shield tank.

More things to mull over :)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2012-08-14 07:37:24 UTC
St Mio wrote:

Also for shield tanking these frigs, you're looking at a mid for your AB, and two for your Codebreaker/Analyzer. This means only the Heron can really fit a (one slot!) shield tank.


Unfortunately one mid slot is currently all that is needed to get an overpowered active shield tank.

Ban ASBs, give the Heron one more mid.

.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#60 - 2012-08-14 08:17:33 UTC
St Mio wrote:
Imicus > Vexor > Ishtar
Magnate > Arby > ?


Nah, it's obviously new Crucifier > Arby > T2 Arby variants. Putting Imicus first is a little weird - normally, it's Amarr drone boats that have drones and no guns - no guns even if they wanted them, due to terrible slot layouts or neuts being so preferable. So I'd expect the predecessor to the Vexor to be something more like the Ishkur, a capable combat frig with drone and hybrid bonuses. (So, what the Gallente mining frig will turn out to be.)

The Magnate already has two drones on TQ, but the logic here is clearly that drones are super effective at exploration, so let's just give them to all of the exploration frigs.

St Mio wrote:
Also for shield tanking these frigs, you're looking at a mid for your AB, and two for your Codebreaker/Analyzer. This means only the Heron can really fit a (one slot!) shield tank.


I'd probably fit a one-slot shield tank on the Magnate, too, so that the lows can have much-needed agility mods and a damage control, for traveling through lowsec. It's easy enough to carry either the codebreaker or the analyzer in your cargohold.