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The fail of free to play (SWTOR)
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1 - 2012-08-13 11:45:34 UTC
http://technorati.com/entertainment/gaming/article/how-and-why-star-wars-the1/


http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/07/31/star-wars-the-old-republic-is-going-free-to-play-this-fall/


One of the biggest names in gaming franchises. Falling to the free to play swords. We already know WoW is falling to this as well.

I like the read from the first story, its a very big, telling story of what happened. I was following it before launch, then E3 came, I started reading the leaked opinions of the analysys and lawyers that got top play it and the "WoW clone" title started getting tossed around, I tried to laugh it off given that gets thrown around about as much as "WoW killer".

Then I read, articles that read like this:
http://swtor.gamingfeeds.com/2011/02/10/greg-zeschuk-world-of-warcraft-established-the-mmo-standards/
My main has been in this game since 2007. EVE has been out a year longer than WoW.

Quote:
It [WoW] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb.


Quote:
It’s not like we’re actually going out there to beat anyone, we’re going out to place


Thats when I started getting that (now familiar) sinking feeling

I was in the beta, I had hopes that BioWare (even is shackled with EA) could pull it out of the fire.

Apparently I was wrong.







(PLease Please PLLLLLEEEEAAAAASE) CCP dont go free to play

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-08-13 12:27:19 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
(PLease Please PLLLLLEEEEAAAAASE) CCP dont go free to play


agree

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Rashmika Clavain
Revelation Space
#3 - 2012-08-13 13:11:49 UTC
Well I think the playerbase made their feelings clear over microtransactions... Bear
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#4 - 2012-08-13 13:22:56 UTC
Historically, what is acceptable to us, is rarely acceptable to CCP.

They had the best space MMO, it wasn't enough and they bought White Wolf.

Then they started development of a vampire MMO, but it wasn't enough for them.

They started development of a f2p fps, and this wasn't enough for them.

Not satisfied with EVE? Why?

AK

This space for rent.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-08-13 13:25:08 UTC
dexington wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
(PLease Please PLLLLLEEEEAAAAASE) CCP dont go free to play


agree


I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The reason most games go F2P, as opposed to being designed that way from the start, is not because it's the future of all MMOs. They go F2P because they failed as a subscription game. The managers of such failed games like to put a positive spin on that failure and claim they're just following the trend. The truth is, that their game was not competative and wasn't able to give enough value in exchange for that subscription money. That is it.

The move to F2P is smart from the company's perspective though. If they stay sub only, they'll die a slow, certain death. If they go F2P, they can increase revenue by cash shops and the competition isn't as fierce. I'm not saying there aren't some really good F2P games out there. I'm saying most of them are either very simple games or can't compere to the production values of the late subscription game. So for at least a short while, the game should see a boost in people playing and incoming money.

The only real problem is, that the game is now officially dead as a AAA MMO. If you had high hopes, that years from now SWTOR is going to one of the best MMOs on the market, you can now officially bury those hopes. The dev team has been reduced in size for a few times already, so they can't tackle the large projects at the speed they could beforehand, if they'll do such project at all given that the design focus has shifted from building the best game possible to producing cash shop content packages for people to buy with a dollar or two. Large tech/system revamps might become unattractive, since you can't sell them in the store and it's a major drain on dev time.

The cash shop might not be so bad, but this is EA, so I'm guessing they'll start it slow, but in the end they'll go as far as they can get away with. Vanity items are give, P2W propably not at the start to make the transition go smoother and convenience items are very likely. I wouldn't be surprised to see intentionally increasing the grinding in order to increase convenience sales. Basicly if the game didn't already meet all your MMO needs and you were supporting it in hopes of getting major revamps, regular new high quality content and continous development outside the cash shop, abandon ship.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#6 - 2012-08-13 14:22:09 UTC
Going F2P doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom. Several mmo's out there have actually made more income with the F2P model over subscription (D&D, LOTRO, POTBS) and many games taht started as FTP have made it big right off (WOT and that stupid Mafia game on FB).

Now I see that you didn't even put down a reason why you think ccp shouldn't go F2P but I'm going to assume that its one of the usual reasons such as we don't want P2W or it will bring all the wowtards over. Well the second we already have simply because a good majority of the playerbase has played at least one other mmo in their lifetime and more often than not that mmo is usually WOW. I'm guilty of month of it. As to the P2W I guess I can kind of see a point of there, not wanting gold ammo or something.

But really CCP has been running its own F2P program for years and its a model that I think is actually very effective. In fact its so effective that Tera has actually modeled its own program after it. This being that players can convert real money into an in game time code and sell that for isk. What I like about this model is that somebody who normally wouldn't be able to play can now play, the seller gets a quick isk fix to which he may otherwise be constrained from doing, and CCP still gets a subscription payment, in other words everyone wins. Well, everyone who is for plex's, it seems that other people feel that is some kind of in game advantage for the seller. In any case, CCP technically already has what you don't want them to have, its just a slightly different variation of the service.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#7 - 2012-08-13 17:17:02 UTC
CCP has no need to go Free to play, we already have a complex yet utterly streamlined system of "free to play upon the $ of others" PLEX system. Going standard mmo fare free to play for CCP would be akin to INCARNA 2.0 NGE fiasco. They should not mess with their system, it works and it flows. Their crap store is still a crap store and they should know the plex system brings along with the power of 2 like offers and multiboxing, all the cash they need to stay afloat and develop.

As a niche game, population will always be capped.

Lets hope CCP stays on the right path and actually learned something from Incarna

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#8 - 2012-08-13 19:39:52 UTC
Totally don't expect free to play for EVE. They have it quite well just the way it is right now.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#9 - 2012-08-13 20:38:29 UTC
In my experience, F2P turn out to be more expensive than subscription games. And that's why companies love them; human suck at maths and the average joe is more willing to spend 4 times 5 euros than to spend 15 euros once. And yet i sitll haven't seen a single thriving, growing MMO go F2P, rather F2P comes once they stop succeeding -if they ever succeed, that's it.

CCP's financial model is briliant. They provide (usually) great value for subscription with the free expansions (which are a byproduct of the single shard) and let people spend as much money as they see fit and yet don't get anyhing they couldn't had got in game, provided enough time.

It's kind of difficult to figure why did they bothered with AUR at all, beyond AUR being the gateway for DUST's out of game funding.

But then, Crowd Control Productions is not just a corporate name...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#10 - 2012-08-13 20:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Sunset
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Going F2P doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom. Several mmo's out there have actually made more income with the F2P model over subscription (D&D, LOTRO,

Got stuck there. I keep hearing this over and over. You do know that LOTRO has less active accounts now compared to just before it went f2p? If they actually "make more income", you think every existing player is paying more than $15/mo there now? ...while most f2p's make less than $2 a head on avg. Less. Read that on Gamasutra. As for AA numbers, look up mmo data charts which is reasonably accurate. LOTRO had a huge influx of players after going f2p, but that's over... some time ago.

And that's the thing, it's mostly a herd of f2p players moving from one game to the next, pillaging and burning heh. Once the novelty wears of with any particular new f2p, it's move on to the next. An mmo just can't survive such a life. It's clearly a marketing move to get money out of it in the short term rather than long term survival.

The f2p craze is still very new, expect to see far further degradation in the coming months and years, not just loss of quality but closures as well.

—Ω—
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#11 - 2012-08-13 22:42:48 UTC
Omega Sunset wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Going F2P doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom. Several mmo's out there have actually made more income with the F2P model over subscription (D&D, LOTRO,

Got stuck there. I keep hearing this over and over. You do know that LOTRO has less active accounts now compared to just before it went f2p? If they actually "make more income", you think every existing player is paying more than $15/mo there now? ...while most f2p's make less than $2 a head on avg. Less. Read that on Gamasutra. As for AA numbers, look up mmo data charts which is reasonably accurate. LOTRO had a huge influx of players after going f2p, but that's over... some time ago.

And that's the thing, it's mostly a herd of f2p players moving from one game to the next, pillaging and burning heh. Once the novelty wears of with any particular new f2p, it's move on to the next. An mmo just can't survive such a life. It's clearly a marketing move to get money out of it in the short term rather than long term survival.

The f2p craze is still very new, expect to see far further degradation in the coming months and years, not just loss of quality but closures as well.



You are correct that LOTRO has fewer players than it did a year ago when it first peaked after it went went FTP, but the model doesn't work based on subscription.

Here are a couple of Ted talks that really do a good job in explaining how FTP games have made several billion in revenue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyamsZXXF2w
http://www.ted.com/talks/jesse_schell_when_games_invade_real_life.html

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#12 - 2012-08-14 00:20:35 UTC
My one problem with FTP models is a simple one. It is arguably a non-issue, depending on your faith in fellow humans, but here it is, as I've said a few times before.

The problem with FTP is that, like it or not, there is content being developed that is not contributing directly to bringing in money. This causes two main issues, that you would be hard pressed to deny-

1. Developers start biasing development time towards the stuff that people are spending money on. More useless vanity fluff, perhaps a paylocked [not expansion!] section of the game, the list goes on. You segregate your development time and, in the process, the people playing your game.
2. Subscription models are better for the player in the long run. Equality among a playerbase is *important* and the only way to ensure this is to make sure that the same content is available to every player, with the only walls being skill or activity based. Some games [Warcraft] skirt this rule with success via paid expansions, which some (myself included) will argue even so that now with their fourth expansion coming out, the entry level for new players is just scaling out of hand, but that is largely negated by knocking down the price of the previous expansions.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-08-14 01:17:36 UTC
Disclosure: I loved KOTOR. Read much about SWTOR, and might give it a go sometime.

The Old Republic is a decent game. I like how BioWare approached it as "Knights of the Old Republic 3" rather than "a Star Wars MMO." What I understand is that it fails as a "game world." It's too scripted to allow for content generation that can keep up with player demands.

On the other hand, EVE's free expansions don't add missions, star systems, or even many ships/modules. They add gameplay styles. For example, look at Tyrannis, a "failed" expansion. Players everywhere are still doing PI, and planets actually mean something now. The amount of extra hours of meaningful gameplay versus time for development is a staggering ratio when you think about it. If this is "failure," then CCP's in a pretty awesome spot.

Traditional MMOs are games, and people want their money's worth, measured in hours. EVE is more of a service, where you're provided tools for fun, but little guidance on what to do with them. I think a subscription will be justifiable for many more years. Not to mention that having a barrier for entry (arguably) increases the quality of the community, keeping the game universe fun and unique. What other game can you take the same mechanics, but change your surroundings, and get a completely different experience?

If you want to think of it another way, EVE is already F2P, but the MT is placed up front where you can see it. So instead of "It's free! There's no reason not to play! (...please insert card here to have fun...)" you get "The catch is, you're paying up front. Work for your F2P, *****. Life sucks."

Occasionally plays sober
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#14 - 2012-08-14 01:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Going F2P doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom.



Im more thinking the people that would be attracted TO the game for my reason TO doom and gloom in this case. What kind of scum are kept FROM eve BY the sub lol

And no; there are worse things than WoWtards. Hell there are lurking in the internets worse things than Goons.

Blane Xero wrote:
My one problem with FTP models is a simple one. It is arguably a non-issue, depending on your faith in fellow humans, but here it is, as I've said a few times before.

The problem with FTP is that, like it or not, there is content being developed that is not contributing directly to bringing in money. This causes two main issues, that you would be hard pressed to deny-

1. Developers start biasing development time towards the stuff that people are spending money on. More useless vanity fluff, perhaps a paylocked [not expansion!] section of the game, the list goes on. You segregate your development time and, in the process, the people playing your game.
2. Subscription models are better for the player in the long run. Equality among a playerbase is *important* and the only way to ensure this is to make sure that the same content is available to every player, with the only walls being skill or activity based. Some games [Warcraft] skirt this rule with success via paid expansions, which some (myself included) will argue even so that now with their fourth expansion coming out, the entry level for new players is just scaling out of hand, but that is largely negated by knocking down the price of the previous expansions.


Ya like DDO or Star Trek Online

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#15 - 2012-08-14 02:03:02 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Going F2P doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom.



Im more thinking the people that would be attracted TO the game for my reason TO doom and gloom in this case. What kind of scum are kept FROM eve BY the sub lol

And no; there are worse things than WoWtards. Hell there are lurking in the internets worse things than Goons.



I play several FTP games without a subscription and I have a subscription here, does this change your view of me? If the answer is yes, you should then ask yourself how many eve players do this.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2012-08-14 06:24:09 UTC
Stop confusing File Transfer Protocol (FTP) with Free to Play (F2P)!

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Velarra
#17 - 2012-08-14 09:00:34 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
Disclosure: I loved KOTOR. Read much about SWTOR, and might give it a go sometime.

The Old Republic is a decent game. I like how BioWare approached it as "Knights of the Old Republic 3" rather than "a Star Wars MMO."


I loved kotor as well.

SWTOR has nothing to do with the KOTOR games aside from setting and only vaguely.

It's starwars + wowclone.

..

Forget every memory/feeling/association you had related to kotor before you ever consider playing SWTOR.

The bitterness and tears you'll save yourself (and bandwidth) will be worth it.

It's a wow / generic / questy game clone.

& Nothing more.
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#18 - 2012-08-14 18:30:49 UTC
One game I would LOVE seeing go F2P is Vanguard and EQ1. No crappy pirate shard, but legit f2p servers.

Reading about SWTOR, the new wave of MMOs that are more or less the same despite what devs say, I think the MMO market is stagnant. Too many burger joints in town only make you wanna eat something else.

EVE is like a Hot Dog in Burger Joint town, with soggy buns and no extras, not the best, but different at least.

What we need is that the people out there trying to develop MMOs come out with something truly diff. Why do we see the same old level and class systems being still worked out to death in most games? Meh, eve will soon be 10 years old and I haven't seen many SKILL BASED MMOs out there (Perpetuum alone?)

If I had known about the future of the MMO market, I would have never left EQ1. Everything I wanted out of a MMO is there, Raids, loot, massive grinding, hardcore corpse runs (back in the day) deleveling, 80+ people raids (not the crap 6,12,24 format), after EQ1 for me the evolution of the MMO market has been the slow descent into mediocrity, casual content surfers and the dreaded lowest common denominator appeal for the masses in game development thinking. Im not young enough to dedicate 12+ hours to an MMO like in EQ1, but if I had remained knowing how the future would be I would feel better and would have tons of max AA alts today and would just log in to multibox with myself like everybody else there.

MMOs these days are just fast food, they quell your hunger but are just that, greasy , cheap mass produced food.

All developers want is milk the consumer without giving any real content, its a blatant slap in the face. Only MMO I play these days is LOTRO and then , out of Tolkien fanboiism and the F2P status.

Im sick and disgusted and wish RUIN upon all the greedy money-eating monkeys that control the MMO market today. Even CCP tried to go that way, and at least community here was more than capable to rock the boat, even if it was out of pure grief drama induced rage.

I would gladly shell out $$$$ for any really innovative MMO or game idea, like I do on kickstarter sometimes, at least there you can sift trough the trash and find a gem every once in a while, something that came out from people with good ideas and not corporate meatheads wanting to fleece consumers.

Meh

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
stoicfaux
#19 - 2012-08-14 18:43:22 UTC
Brujo Loco wrote:
One game I would LOVE seeing go F2P is Vanguard and EQ1.


http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/free-to-play-details-for-vanguard-released/

Also that is two games.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#20 - 2012-08-14 19:14:55 UTC
Brujo Loco wrote:

EVE is like a Hot Dog in Burger Joint town, with soggy buns and no extras, not the best, but different at least.


But ... EVE has awesomesauce !

Brujo Loco wrote:

What we need is that the people out there trying to develop MMOs come out with something truly diff.


... as I said: awesomesauce.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
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