Ships & Modules

I'm sure lots of you have input on this subject. I'm gonna tell you my thoughts on the matter and then I'd love to hear your thoughts, too. I don't care if you read my points, just as long as you're talking about the changes in some way.

I liked the change over all, but I think they went too far in increasing mining yield. For one thing, it sounds a little sketchy in the description on the retriever/mackinaw/procurer/skiff where it says that since they couldn't fit 3 strip miners on it, they "found a way" to make it get full yield. If they could do that, why don't they supercharge the strip miners on the covetor/hulk to boost its yield? After all, I'm paying for three of these expensive things! Also, I think giving the covetor/hulk only a 3% yield bonus per skill level gives them too little of a gap ahead of the rest, especially if they have the lowest toughness.

I think the base yield on the retriever/mackinaw should be +25% or +33%, then they would have a net yield of 2.5 or 2.66, compared to max-skilled covetor and hulk at 3.45 and 3.9675, respectively. That's around a 50% bonus in yield. It's very significant, making those ships a clear winner when it comes to yield. I'd still happily mine in my retriever, getting a decent yield with my giant ore bay and much more significant HP.

Speaking of HP, I think the retriever/mackinaw should have less HP than the covetor/hulk, and here's why: bots vs. human miners. And when I say bots, I'm referring to ALL miners who are taking advantage of mining yield while AFK, myself included at times. Bots don't deserve high HP on their mining ships. Bots should be given a few slots so they can fit their ships for resistance if they take the time to do it, but it shouldn't be handed to them gratis. Mining ops outside of highsec are the ones who fairly should have some decent HP, if even just to make sure their guards have enough time to catch that cloaky who came out of nowhere.

And another thing: size. While I didn't like the tier-system before and am fully in support of tiericide, I want to remind people that size =/= tier. The problem with size before was that the procurer and retriever were "smaller", they were cheaper and had less HP, but they were hit just as easily as a covetor and were almost as sluggish moving around. I think rather than treating them like they are the same size, they should have accentuated the retriever and procurer's size difference and made them move and align much faster. I think the retriever should move and align like the current procurer (it'd still be vulnerable...bots better not complain!!) and the procurer/skiff should actually be fast!

I think the procurer/skiff should have a bonus yield of only 130%. That gives it the same yield as a max skill retriever in the old setup (a net yield of 2.3). Then it should move and align like a battlecruiser. The hit points should be lower than the current, but still pretty decent, and instead it should rely more on its swiftness to get around. Might also be cool if they had 2 high slots, but were simply prohibited from installing a second strip miner. They could add a smartbomb, nos/neut, cloaking device, tractor/salvager -- I bet people would get creative with that. One thing's for sure, it would be much more effective alone in dangerous territory. People might start using them out in nullsec or wormhole space when they want to mine and none of their friends are online.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Looking forward to hearing from you guys. And please, don't knock someone's comment if you don't know anything about the subject they're talking on!

tl;dr: OP wants to revert barge changes so the Hulk's the only one anyone ever flies.

You said Nerf the Mack's yield (which would render it unused), Nerf the Skiff's yield harder (even less use), and buff the Hulk's tank.

They're all meant to be useful in different situations. Your suggestion would simply un-tiericide the barges and result in Hulk Uber Alles again.

By the way, if you're ATK in a Hulk, you can avoid suicide ganks without the need for any tank.

So yeah, you said exactly that. You just tried to hide it in a badly formatted wall of text.

I'm pretty sure the one with the giant ore bay will be the most popular as long as its yield is anywhere near the max. Have you ever scanned the modules on hulks mining in highsec? They would virtually always equip cargo expanders and cargo rigs, and fit zero or next to zero tank, and virtually never fit mining upgrades. And hulks didn't even need any cpu enhancements to fit a mining upgrade back then. And now, the difference in cargo space between hulk and mackinaw is MUCH larger than the amount gained from fitting cargo expanders instead of mining upgrades. So no, statistics have literally already demonstrated that you're wrong, even before this update came out.

I really wish you would stop trying so desperately to point out everyone's faults! There's nothing wrong with pointing out real problems and errors if you see them, but you--you just go around trying to find fault with everyone. You have to reply to every post I make and say some poorly-thought-out stuff that doesn't even make much sense just to hear yourself talk. I try to be cool about it, but it's really very annoying. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the number of likes you have on your main doesn't correlate with how much people actually like you, it only correlates to how often you post on the forums. So don't let it go to your head.

No, he told you you are wrong and why you are wrong. That's well within the realm of constructive discussion.

If I want to have a discussion on why the sky is purple with pink pokadots, I don't get to say "you're not being constructive" when someone points out that the sky is, in fact, blue and shows color swatches to prove it.

riiiiiiight

So I guess you guys didn't say these things:

Which is untrue because my suggestion for Mackinaws was to take advantage of the very thing that hulks were generally used for, which is more room for ore. I even explained to you (with figures) that my proposal put the retriever/mackinaw on a much more generous +cargo vs. -yield ratio than using cargo expanders over MLUs did for the hulk before the update. Here, I'll give you some even easier figures if you couldn't understand what I said before:
Old Hulk with 2 MLUs:
Ore Yield--: ###############################################
Ore Space: ########################
Old Hulk with 2 Cargo Expanders: <-- this is the one everybody used before
Ore Yield--: ########################################
Ore Space: ########################################

Proposed Hulk: <-- you're telling me everybody would pick this one
Ore Yield--: ########################################
Ore Space: #################
Proposed Mackinaw:
Ore Yield--: ###########################
Ore Space: ########################################################################################


Why would I be? Tiericide doesn't mean that pirate faction ships are supposed to be equal to tech 1 ships, it means that tech 1 ships are supposed to be equal to tech 1 ships.

So, according to Pipa Porto, I must have imagined that you guys said these things. Also, I'm posting this with fair certainty that in the time it took me to type this, I've already received more mindless, un-researched, un-thoughtful placation. I can't keep up with it all!

-edit-
I was right!

I'm gonna have to agree here. (Not about the Cat though, I've got a Dog instead.)

1. The Hulk is not meant to be at all efficient as a solo ship, so any claims about it warping around and losing yield are irrelevant.

2. Which graph was that? Most graphs that I've ever been asked to pay attention to have had data associated with them. You have nothing but wild ass guesses represented in your "graph."

3. If you want to mine Solo or AFK, the Mack and Skiff are for you. If you want to put in the tiny amount of effort it takes to move ore from your Hulk to your Orca, and the tiny amount of effort it takes to secure yourself, the Hulk is for you.

4. You seem strangely angry that your profession got an enormous buff.

I liked the change over all, but I think they went too far in increasing mining yield. For one thing, it sounds a little sketchy in the description on the retriever/mackinaw/procurer/skiff where it says that since they couldn't fit 3 strip miners on it, they "found a way" to make it get full yield. If they could do that, why don't they supercharge the strip miners on the covetor/hulk to boost its yield?

Why weren't Iowa class battleships also Submarines? I mean, they found a way to make Ohio class reliably sink and resurface, surely they could do the same with Iowas?

See how silly this argument sounds? Perhaps the yield increase systems take more space (hence smaller ore bay?), require more power, cost more, perhaps the electromagnetic field caused by one such system cancels out mechanisms on other systems, thereby making them unuseful with multiple mining turrets, etc. There's a billion reasons why one solution might not work in a different situation.

After all, I'm paying for three of these expensive things!

They're not expensive, all three hulls combined cost less than a single Tengu hull.

Also, I think giving the covetor/hulk only a 3% yield bonus per skill level gives them too little of a gap ahead of the rest, especially if they have the lowest toughness.

Actually, the cargo and yield ships' toughness (Mackinaw, Hulk, Retriever, Covertor) are fairly similar. Since the yield ships are ment to be used in fleets, that's not a problem. With cargo and toughness ships, you are ment to choose between less time lost travelling and more defense, thus making all three ships balanced.

I think the base yield on the retriever/mackinaw should be +25% or +33%, then they would have a net yield of 2.5 or 2.66, compared to max-skilled covetor and hulk at 3.45 and 3.9675, respectively. That's around a 50% bonus in yield. It's very significant, making those ships a clear winner when it comes to yield. I'd still happily mine in my retriever, getting a decent yield with my giant ore bay and much more significant HP.

At 50% bonus yield, you'd again be better off mining into a jet can and hauling ore with a dedicated ship. Since Hulk and Mackinaw have similar tanks, that would make the cargo line redundant. And hulk the clear ship of the choice for solo mining where ganks are not an issue.

Speaking of HP, I think the retriever/mackinaw should have less HP than the covetor/hulk, and here's why: bots vs. human miners. And when I say bots, I'm referring to ALL miners who are taking advantage of mining yield while AFK, myself included at times. Bots don't deserve high HP on their mining ships. Bots should be given a few slots so they can fit their ships for resistance if they take the time to do it, but it shouldn't be handed to them gratis. Mining ops outside of highsec are the ones who fairly should have some decent HP, if even just to make sure their guards have enough time to catch that cloaky who came out of nowhere.

I will argue that null sec mining operations are less dangerous than high sec ones. You are surrounded by allied bubbled gates and the first sign of non-blue in or even near the system results in immediate docking of allied ships. Should a cloaked non-blue be present in the system for a prolonged period of time, you can expect heavy fleet support to protect the allied assets.

in contrast, mining in high sec, you will have a lot of non-blue players in the system at any one time, never knowing when to expect an attack. For all you know, all of them may just be passing through, exploring, chasing a war target of theirs, whatever. Therefore, you get to choose - do you use a high cargo ship to get as high a yield per hour as possible or do you play it safe and get a heavily fortified ship with lower yield instead?

Note: your argument would hold if low / null sec wouldn't have perfect system information through local.

I think the retriever should move and align like the current procurer (it'd still be vulnerable...bots better not complain!!) and the procurer/skiff should actually be fast!

Respectfully, no. They are mining vessels, they should behave like mining vessels. You're not there to swoop in and take a few asteroids on the pass, you're there processing thousands of m3 of ore. To be quite honest, I think the ships are actually too fast, as you can't realistically stay aligned at 75% speed while mining.

I think the procurer/skiff should have a bonus yield of only 130%. That gives it the same yield as a max skill retriever in the old setup (a net yield of 2.3). Then it should move and align like a battlecruiser. The hit points should be lower than the current, but still pretty decent, and instead it should rely more on its swiftness to get around. Might also be cool if they had 2 high slots, but were simply prohibited from installing a second strip miner. They could add a smartbomb, nos/neut, cloaking device, tractor/salvager -- I bet people would get creative with that. One thing's for sure, it would be much more effective alone in dangerous territory. People might start using them out in nullsec or wormhole space when they want to mine and none of their friends are online.

This is where you lost me. Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a second slot on a skiff - cloaking device, hell yeah, not like you need fast targetting on a mining ship. However, I think it would take away from the game, as it would make every miner relatively safe, no matter where they were. If you want to mine safely, there are other options, not necessarily dedicated mining ships. Yield suffers, but then, that's the intention, is it not? After all, Miner IIs can't even be loaded onto mining barges - and for a reason.

Tldr: it's fine.

Mackinaw is actually about 79% of the yield of a hulk and retriever is about 87% yield of a covetor, all with max skills. The gap actually decreases with lower skills, down to a mackinaw having about 85% yield of a hulk with exhumers 1, and a retriever having about 97% yield of a covetor with mining barges 1. The gap is actually significant in exhumers, but still not enough to account for the other tremendous advantages of the medium-sized barges.

1.) It takes a mackinaw around 30-35 minutes to fill up its ore hold, if the operator has good supportive mining skills. It then takes around 3 minutes to warp to station, drop off the ore, and come back. That's an up time of just over 90%.

2.) If a hulk were to mine till it fills up with ore and then turn it in to the station, it would spend around 7-8 minutes mining and the same 3 minutes (or longer) returning the ore. That's an up time of around 70%.

3.) If the hulk were to jet-can the ore and pick it up in an iteron mark v (38k m3) every time there was enough for 3 trips (to minimize time lost), then the hulk would mine for about an hour and a half, and then the iteron mark v would spend a little over 10 minutes picking up the ore and taking it back to the station. That's an up time of around 90%.

In example 2, the hulk (assuming the yield is 26% greater) would mine at about 97% of the rate of the mackinaw in example 1. That's with max skills. At exhumers 1, the gap would be much more significant.

In example 3, the hulk is mining about 25% faster than the mackinaw in example 1, at the cost of having all of the ore vulnerable while it mines; the ship has around 30% less HP than a mackinaw (and is a tighter fit for defense); and you have to constantly be there pretty much the whole time. You can't leave for more than about 6-9 minutes at a time. And then you might even have to worry about your jet cans popping if the boredom makes you lose your concentration. Compare that to mining in a Mackinaw, in which you can be away for 80-90% of the time you're mining.

I don't know why you mine in a hulk, and judging by your poor math skills, I don't think you do either.

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Caitlin Tufy: is there even one single reasonable tidbit you said in all that? I don't even know where to start...