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Armor Compensation skills
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Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-07-10 11:30:49 UTC
These give your Active Hardeners a Passive bonus when not active.

Does this new Passive bonus incur stacking penalties with Passive Hardeners affecting the same Resistance...?


Ugh

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-07-10 12:09:14 UTC
Technically yes, the bonuses from inactive hardeners are in the same stack as bonuses from passive resistances. The inactive hardeners provide a smaller bonus though, so instead of being first in the stack (when they are active) they tend to be last in the stack when passive.

Does that make sense? I can math it out for you if you'd like.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-07-10 12:18:45 UTC
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2012-07-10 12:31:04 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.


Shrug. They'll save your ass once in awhile when you've been neuted dry, but they really are more valuable for passives -- especially cheap deadspace passives, EANMs, and ANPs. In general armor comps are more valuable than shield comps, so there's that.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-07-10 12:39:44 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.


Shrug. They'll save your ass once in awhile when you've been neuted dry, but they really are more valuable for passives -- especially cheap deadspace passives, EANMs, and ANPs. In general armor comps are more valuable than shield comps, so there's that.


Yeah I guess, due to Armor Tanking having Passive omni modules. Though I generally fly my Armor boat in PvE where neuts are minimal to non-existing.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-07-10 22:16:58 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.


Shrug. They'll save your ass once in awhile when you've been neuted dry, but they really are more valuable for passives -- especially cheap deadspace passives, EANMs, and ANPs. In general armor comps are more valuable than shield comps, so there's that.


Yeah I guess, due to Armor Tanking having Passive omni modules. Though I generally fly my Armor boat in PvE where neuts are minimal to non-existing.


heh try "Blockade" Level 4's with Blood Raiders.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#7 - 2012-07-10 22:35:47 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.


14% or so from your active hardeners after they've been neuted away is nothing to sneeze at, man, that's a lot of extra time to align and spam the warp button while praying for a capacitor regen tick.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#8 - 2012-07-11 06:36:27 UTC
Bommel McMurdoc wrote:

heh try "Blockade" Level 4's with Blood Raiders.



^ This. I love / hate that mission. ;p

As for 'useless' skills, I personally don't think any such thing exists. It takes what, about 2 days to get L4 in each of the compensation skills? Pretty fair trade for a +12% on actives turned off, or +20% to passives. Takes up no CPU, Power grid, or H/M/L slots. In pve, and in particular pvp, every % makes things a bit easier. Big smile

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2012-07-11 06:57:32 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So in essence the skills are rather worthless for Active Hardeners.


14% or so from your active hardeners after they've been neuted away is nothing to sneeze at, man, that's a lot of extra time to align and spam the warp button while praying for a capacitor regen tick.


I'd tend to agree. These days I mostly shield tank and whenever I hop in to an active armor tanked ship I always seem to find myself in deeper trouble than I mean to be in what with repping at the end of the cycle and whatnot. That combined with the fact that I shoot Blood Raiders about 90% of the time means having a little extra unneutable resistance can really help.

Taking them to five is in the plan for this remap though shield comps are first (actually they're half done). Having that inactive invuln do something for me has saved my ass a few times.
Skelee VI
Swamp Panthers
Bog Brotherhood
#10 - 2012-07-11 14:58:39 UTC
I have all comp skills at 5 and let me tell you it is great. Sometimes adding a cap booster saves the day. You can actice armor tank a harbinger to do level 4's or plexes easy.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-07-11 17:50:13 UTC
Well actually if for shields let those passive at 4 it's not a big problem or a huge improvement (I did because DED passive resists on Tengu = less cap use and it's hella effective) for armor you definitively want those lvl5

It's on my book to finish once armor tanking becomes interesting, but already with lvl 4 A-type platings can really really improve your tank and actually leave more room for gank. Armor takes a lot of resist mods with low skills or active hardeners witch are not desirable when you think armor tanking+lasers or hybrids it's a cap nightmare to manage.
You actually see the difference when you get Battleship passive armor tanking certificate to improved, it's a huge improvement leaving more room for gank.

brb
Rictus Muerte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-08-13 19:55:00 UTC
Just wondering, as I am not near my PC to log in and test this. If I have the skill at lev 3... and I am using a passive with a base resist bonus of 30%, does this make it 45%? Or is this skill another resist amount stacked onto the chain in the typical reduced manner... ie... 15% of whats left AFTER your 30% from the mod?

I ask this to see if we can figure out what combination may yield the highest individual boost to each resist for armor. Same with a DCU... is that added to base, or is it applied separate as 15% (for example) of whats left AFTER your base resist?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-08-13 20:05:49 UTC
Rictus Muerte wrote:
Just wondering, as I am not near my PC to log in and test this. If I have the skill at lev 3... and I am using a passive with a base resist bonus of 30%, does this make it 45%?


It's 30% * 1.15 = 34.15%
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2012-08-13 20:24:28 UTC
Rictus Muerte wrote:
Just wondering, as I am not near my PC to log in and test this. If I have the skill at lev 3... and I am using a passive with a base resist bonus of 30%, does this make it 45%?


No on all levels. Maths are here on how comp skills interact with passive resists:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1224670#post1224670

Rictus Muerte wrote:
Or is this skill another resist amount stacked onto the chain in the typical reduced manner... ie... 15% of whats left AFTER your 30% from the mod?


Always, always, always this. Sample maths here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1158422#post1158422

Rictus Muerte wrote:
I ask this to see if we can figure out what combination may yield the highest individual boost to each resist for armor. Same with a DCU... is that added to base, or is it applied separate as 15% (for example) of whats left AFTER your base resist?


The damage control is still multiplicative but it dodges the stacking penalty. Note that we haven't even talked about the stacking penalty in either of the linked examples. So what is this stacking penalty thing? It is the reduced effectiveness penalty that applies to multiple modules that affect the same stat. So here's an example:

Take a base 30% resist. Add a 50% resist module. Your total resist is now (1-.3)*.5 + .3 = .65 or a 65% resist. Without the stacking penalty, a further 50% resist module would be calculated like this:

(1-.65)*.5 + .65 = .825 or 82.5%

But that's not how it works. Instead, we get a penalty (in bold) and it's calculated like this:

(1-.65)*.5*.8691 + .65 = .802 or 80.2%

A third 50% hardener would be calculated like this:

(1-.802)*.5*.5706 + .802 = .858 or 85.8%

The unique thing about the damage control is that it never stacks. That is, it won't face that penalty multiplier and it won't force anything else to do so either.