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500m to declare war on Goonswarm? (AKA: why are small corps penalised by the wardec system?)

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Viceroy Jane
Demons on Wings
#61 - 2012-08-06 22:15:08 UTC
ITT: High-sec pubbies with no idea how logistics work complaining that they might have to pay an additional 500 m to camp the Jita undock.

el oh el
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-08-06 22:25:42 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Please tell me how this new wardec system is supposed to be 'better'?

Apart from the obvious minor benefit that war is slightly easier to administer, it seems setup to protect large alliances. Not that alliances even have to be that large before war costs become painful for smaller corporations.

So please explain to me how this is an improvement on the old system. For everyone apart from massive alliances, that is.

In short, it's vastly more expensive to declare war. Why? It's not like 0.0 alliances don't enjoy targets in empire as a break from 0.0 blobbage, so this change seems to benefit no-one (apart from Solar Citizens)

edit: he's a simple suggestion: the cost of wardecs should be based on the size of the corporation/alliance making the declaration, not the alliance you are wardeccing... if you want 8000 people to have a license to gank in empire, pay more for it... surely that makes vastly more sense than the current system and allows cost to scale with affordablity more pragmatically


See your avatar give me a strong feeling you are trolling.... (W.I.S hater guy or short turm troll)
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#63 - 2012-08-07 04:29:05 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Your ignorance is absolutely legendary.

What war have you been involved in where shutting down the supply line was not an obvious goal? Lol if you seriously were.

Easy ganks a problem for you? You're in the wrong fuckin corp if they are.

If its easy to take something significant from the biggest alliance in the game the game must be broken huh?


"shutting down the supply line" goddamn i love armchair generals in eve

nobody anywhere runs anything of importance from hisec to nullsec with characters in the alliance


Then there was no need for the goon post complaining about it.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-08-13 13:18:22 UTC
So there is no actual answer from CCP regarding why wardecs are based on the size of the entity you are declaring war on, rather than the entity declaring war?

I don't think a 2 man coporation should have to pay the same as an 8000 man one when declaring war. For a start, that's a lot more Concord licenses (thinking about the RP aspect), and also creates pointless ISK barriers which are more likely to impact smaller corporations negatively. It seems completely crazy.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-08-13 13:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
OP FYI actually it is any Alliance that has a 900 members or more gets a 500 Million price tag.

50 Mill + 500,000 K per member if I remember correctly.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-08-13 13:48:02 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
OP FYI actually it is any Alliance that has a 900 members or more gets a 500 Million price tag.

50 Mill + 500,000 K per member if I remember correctly.

(log2.05831 N)^2 * 300000 * N^0.27 where N is members.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=42269

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#67 - 2012-08-13 13:48:40 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Please tell me how this new wardec system is supposed to be 'better'?

Apart from the obvious minor benefit that war is slightly easier to administer, it seems setup to protect large alliances. Not that alliances even have to be that large before war costs become painful for smaller corporations.

So please explain to me how this is an improvement on the old system. For everyone apart from massive alliances, that is.

In short, it's vastly more expensive to declare war. Why? It's not like 0.0 alliances don't enjoy targets in empire as a break from 0.0 blobbage, so this change seems to benefit no-one (apart from Solar Citizens)

edit: he's a simple suggestion: the cost of wardecs should be based on the size of the corporation/alliance making the declaration, not the alliance you are wardeccing... if you want 8000 people to have a license to gank in empire, pay more for it... surely that makes vastly more sense than the current system and allows cost to scale with affordablity more pragmatically


welcome to weeks ago. Want to attack a major powerhouse? Big costs. Want to attack a weak carebear corp? Cheap as chips. Want to bring in allies because you're a weak corp who were decced by a larger aggressor? Big costs.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#68 - 2012-08-13 13:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Ashrik Tyr wrote:
I haven't talked to our personal CCP liason yet, but if I had to guess then I'd say that CCP gets that the obvious point of empire wardecs against large null groups are for the sole purpose of getting easy ganks on solo people carrying loot into/out of hisec.

So maybe they only want to encourage hisec "wars" that are actually wars instead of things used to pad killstats and get easy loot.


Shutting down hisec logistics is a valid goal in and of itself. But I guess nullbears also want hisec to be 100% safe when it comes to their own assets.

while we're on the subject, why havent ccp fixed the ability to instantly drop out / be kicked out of corp and be free from wars? Why not stick a 24 hour period on there where people who drop corp are still viable targets? It'd prevent bs like dropping corp to avoid camps
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-08-13 13:54:54 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.



He wants freighter kills to be cheaper Lol

brb
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-08-13 13:56:05 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.



He wants freighter kills to be cheaper Lol

Pity we generally don't run around with freighters in GSF in hisec, we generally use altcorps for that. Only dumbasses get caught in hisec in GSF chars, and **** them.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-08-13 13:57:32 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Shutting down hisec logistics is a valid goal in and of itself. But I guess nullbears also want hisec to be 100% safe when it comes to their own assets.


I've never had trouble in hisec, even when running freighters around. Before the wardec changes, after - same thing. Never had any trouble.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-08-13 18:18:49 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Pity we generally don't run around with freighters in GSF in hisec, we generally use altcorps for that. Only dumbasses get caught in hisec in GSF chars, and **** them.


I'm pretty sure most 0.0 alliances enjoy empire wardecs as it gives them something to play with outside boring 0.0 blobbage and grind.

However there are certain entities who are really hurt by wardecs - such as smaller, young empire based corporations who are finding their feet. So it only costs a few million to wardec them, even if that wardec is by an 8000 man entity.

What I'm really saying is: make the cost of wardecs scale with the size of the entity declaring war. Then you won't 'protect' alliances who don't need protecting, at the expense of the smaller guys.

I think we can all agree that any mechanics which encourage smaller-scale action and less blobbage are a good thing. Well the current wardec system does the opposite. It's just poorly thought out game design.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#73 - 2012-08-13 18:24:13 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
[quote=Shukuzen Kiraa][quote=Lady Whipcrack][quote=Cadfael Maelgwyn]

would you like my 5 man corp to go capture their stations?

yes
5yes

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-08-13 18:54:21 UTC
well i made a seriouspost about it in the features discussion forum

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=143681&find=unread
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#75 - 2012-08-13 19:12:15 UTC
So if you really did post because you want to be at war with the goons I'd suggest finding one of the many corps/alliance they have wardec-ed then contact the leaders of those groups and offer to pay the ally fee to join that war. For example, for us it would be about 15 mil (at the moment) every 2 weeks to join our war.

But this is old news,

Issler
Adrenalinemax
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#76 - 2012-08-13 19:13:36 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Please tell me how this new wardec system is supposed to be 'better'?

Apart from the obvious minor benefit that war is slightly easier to administer, it seems setup to protect large alliances. Not that alliances even have to be that large before war costs become painful for smaller corporations.

So please explain to me how this is an improvement on the old system. For everyone apart from massive alliances, that is.

In short, it's vastly more expensive to declare war. Why? It's not like 0.0 alliances don't enjoy targets in empire as a break from 0.0 blobbage, so this change seems to benefit no-one (apart from Solar Citizens)

edit: he's a simple suggestion: the cost of wardecs should be based on the size of the corporation/alliance making the declaration, not the alliance you are wardeccing... if you want 8000 people to have a license to gank in empire, pay more for it... surely that makes vastly more sense than the current system and allows cost to scale with affordablity more pragmatically



Deklein --------> that way

Otherwise CCP has said numerous times, including at fanfest, wardec fees are being adjusted to pay for targets. You wardec a 8000 man alliance, you PAY for the privilege of shooting a potential 8000 people in highsec.

Now, we all no that most 0.0 alliances avoid high sec except the few people who do logistics when not at war, during war they use alt corps.

Either way, they live where you can fight all day, every day and twice on sundays for FREE, so if you want to complain about price, go to freaking Deklein and shoot all the ammo you want for FREE
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-08-15 12:16:58 UTC
Adrenalinemax wrote:


Deklein --------> that way

Otherwise CCP has said numerous times, including at fanfest, wardec fees are being adjusted to pay for targets. You wardec a 8000 man alliance, you PAY for the privilege of shooting a potential 8000 people in highsec.

Now, we all no that most 0.0 alliances avoid high sec except the few people who do logistics when not at war, during war they use alt corps.

Either way, they live where you can fight all day, every day and twice on sundays for FREE, so if you want to complain about price, go to freaking Deklein and shoot all the ammo you want for FREE


So... if an 8000 man alliance and want to wardec a 10 man corp, it costs them almost nothing.

But... if the small corp wants to exactly the same thing in return, it costs the 10 man corp 500m.

Please explain how that makes any sense.

The system is blatantly skewed against smaller corporations. It's poor design. Cost should scale, but not in the way it does currently - it should cost more to declare war based on the size of the entity declaring the way. That way affordablity scales with size, and ISK barriers protecting large entites from small ones will no longer exist.
Kristof Atruin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-08-15 17:11:17 UTC
I think you've answered your own question. Making it more expensive to wardec a larger corporation gives an incentive to grow your corporation. The opposite is also true. When non-eve players read stories about eve, they're reading about the large null alliances. That's what brings in new players. CCP obviously wants people to play with others rather than play alone with their alts.

The idea that a wardec has any effect on null logistics is absurd. We use out of corp haulers for that. Anyone involved in moving stuff around also has high-sec trade alts. All of eve could wardec a null alliance and it wouldn't change a thing because there's nothing inside the alliance that needs protecting from high-sec chestbeaters. You might catch a few dumbasses farting around in jita, but that has nothing to do with the logistics chain.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-08-15 17:14:17 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
Want more targets? Pay more...


pay vastly more than the old system? why?

please explain why the change was necessary


you can blame noobs wardeccing everything that moves in highsec.
just like you can blame empty lowsec because of "pirates" that kill everything that ever moved. let the rifter go man, let the badger 1 go you don't need to kill all the people in system.
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-08-15 17:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Issler Dainze wrote:
So if you really did post because you want to be at war with the goons I'd suggest finding one of the many corps/alliance they have wardec-ed then contact the leaders of those groups and offer to pay the ally fee to join that war. For example, for us it would be about 15 mil (at the moment) every 2 weeks to join our war.

But this is old news,

Issler


Or.........create a adventure....with your young/ new corp.
(or create dedicated corp for it)

And have fun planning the trips to nullsec for scouting, plan covert ops, plan underground like movements.
Why would you fight FOR someone else....other than the interest of your corp


Maybe you have your own reasons for sabotaging an alliances war effort.
Whatever those may be......its fun to do something with your corp.

Maybe randomly target null-sec mining operations for your operations, be it through destruction or obstruction.
Maybe just invalidating system upgrades........intercept small groups heading for the frontline....

Just like in real life where there are independent cells in a war that sabotage to skew the outcome.


Best thing is....no security loss what so ever.......and helps your team grow.....in multiple ways

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would