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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#161 - 2012-08-13 13:42:03 UTC
What the hell are people complaining about exactly?

brb
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#162 - 2012-08-13 13:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
I believe that the old situation was minerels and ice were a little high, ganking was too easy, and the hulk was considered the best barge.

CUE massive overbalancing

Now we have the opposite situation, minerels are dropping, ice is crashing, likely to never before seen levels, and the mackinkaw is now the best barge. One single change was the cause of this, the massive 35k m3 ore hold. Drop it down to about the level of the skiff at most and all will be well. The mack still has more yield than the skiff, and the skiff has more tank. Overbalancing has caused all the old problems to remain, just in opposite ways. Hulk was the best, now mackinkaw is, and ice was too high, next it'll be too low and the whining will be about that instead.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#163 - 2012-08-13 13:49:19 UTC
The Mackinaw is currently king because it fits player behavior so well.

A majority of players prefer to solo and semi-afk mine. The Mackinaw combines a healthy mining rate with a big internal ore bay, thus eliminating the risk of can flippers.

Because this combination of attributes is so favorable, it is currently the most demanded miner. I do not feel, however, that it is fundamentally unbalanced.

The hulk is still better when it comes to fleet mining operations.
While it does haul more raw ore than a T1 hauler, raw ore is the ONLY thing that massive ore bay can hold. A T1 hauler can put ANYTHING in its cargo hold.

Not to mention, T1 haulers align and warp MUCH faster than the Mackinaw and are *much* cheaper and easier to skill into. So they have replaced the T1 hauler for moving ore around... but in the end T1 haulers still have their place and have by no means been replaced.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#164 - 2012-08-13 13:50:17 UTC
I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.

If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.

Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud.
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-08-13 13:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Ezra Tair wrote:
I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.

If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.

Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud.


I think not. Just a few posts ago I wrote that the barge HP buff was needed. So you're saying that miners needed a 35k m3 ore hold in order to feel safe enough to mine without being ganked? That makes no sense. The ore hold size has nothing to do with ganking, and everything to do with every man and his dog taking up mining as a passive semi afk income, made possible only because of the indy size ore hold.

Perhaps the devs need to add a way to do missions and pvp afk for up to an hour at a time too, since that seems to be the way we're heading.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#166 - 2012-08-13 13:59:42 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place.
Eh… what? When has anyone said any of that?

And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2012-08-13 14:05:44 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard.

Won't the price simply recover from the manipulation and stabilize? I thought the price was pushed way up because of all of Goonswarm's ganking campaigns such that they effectively cornered the market for a while.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-08-13 14:12:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.
Tikera Tissant
#169 - 2012-08-13 14:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikera Tissant
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


Why does it make them useless?
Those are totally different roles.

A skiff/procurer are meant to be the BS size tank ships with the lowest mining/ice yielding.
The machinaw is meant to be the solo pilot ships.

A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help.
A skiff can have an almost 100K EHP tank without even sacrificing its ice/ore yielding by much, while the mack has to sacrifice everything in order to be even close to half of that EHP.

What is the point of even comparing those ships together?

Its like saying a navy raven makes the hoobkill useless. Sorry, but it makes no sense to me.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-08-13 14:22:26 UTC
Tikera Tissant wrote:
A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help.


Plenty of ships will kill you in nullsec long before any help arrives. People kill supercarriers before any help is nearby - a 100k EHP Skiff is no problem.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tikera Tissant
#171 - 2012-08-13 14:24:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tikera Tissant wrote:
A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help.


Plenty of ships will kill you in nullsec long before any help arrives. People kill supercarriers before any help is nearby - a 100k EHP Skiff is no problem.


Of course, but if you happen to be attacked by a random player roaming around, your chances are much better.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#172 - 2012-08-13 14:55:33 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.
…which you can link to, hopefully.

And still: why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#173 - 2012-08-13 15:53:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.
…which you can link to, hopefully.

And still: why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Because a perfectly fit Mack now takes 3 dessies to die instead of 1 to 2. That's the tears tap for the super casual gankers.

As I said 500 times by now, casual gankers don't blame the miners if CCP raised the miner gank bar. Blame the organized gank corps which super-farmed miners and thus pushed CCP into their moves.

In the end, after each nerf there's an idiot(s) who can't restrain himself from over-abusing something considered legit for a long time.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Deise Koraka
Caldari Investigations and Forensics
#174 - 2012-08-13 21:54:43 UTC
People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!

Things like:

1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank
2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something
3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi"
3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up
4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk
5.sitting in stations
6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate

Guys...we are a community of sitters.

If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?


I am a carebear, and I support High Sec ganking and PvP. Just please, don't blow up my Hulk*. **<3 **

*Mackinaw as of Inferno 1.2
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#175 - 2012-08-13 23:29:25 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2012-08-13 23:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Suddenly Boom
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.


You talking about normal belts? Must be, if you checked the ice fields there's 30 macs and 0 hulks PER belt :)

All hail our new afk mining barge overlord!
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#177 - 2012-08-14 00:11:14 UTC
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.


You talking about normal belts? Must be, if you checked the ice fields there's 30 macs and 0 hulks PER belt :)

All hail our new afk mining barge overlord!


I know mate thats what I was saying.
Mercenary MIner
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2012-08-14 03:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mercenary MIner
How interesting all this is. Really haven't been paying much attention to the game and this slips in. I'm a 0.0 ice miner and multibox a large fleet. No I don't bot and lets just say my my computer desk s reminiscence of something at NASA. So when I realized what was going on the first thing I thought about was the statement by CCP from Fanfest that they were going to make it easier for multiboxing miners. Then they said they were going to crack down on botters. REALLY!!?

Come on man first they make an inventory system that makes setting up and maintaining a multiboxed fleet way harder. Now they revamp the fleet ships, giving the Mack a massive cargo hull. Now who does that favor but the botting miner. So in turn for a massive ore bay I give away a fleet of ships that pull in 103 block an hour (with bonuses and implants) for a ship that does 83. Oh wait you say just set up Hulks. I can do that just so I can pull in 92 an hour.

Who cares what ship is best right now. Nothing is on par with the old Mack as far as ice and not everyone mines in empire. Stop being hypocrite CCP either acknowledge you want botters in the game or stop the stealth support. Well not so stealthy at this point.

Now I admit that right now I'm only going on EFT numbers and haven't actually sat in a properly fit and fleeted Hulk. I may be missing something here but man this is the first time I've been pushed to canceling my accounts.
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#179 - 2012-08-14 03:18:10 UTC
Deise Koraka wrote:
People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!

Things like:

1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank
2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something
3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi"
3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up
4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk
5.sitting in stations
6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate

Guys...we are a community of sitters.

If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?




Lol love that...pure ossum...
but if miners can sit in belts, I want ISK while waiting for gangs to form up or people to jump through gates...

James315 for CSM 8!
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#180 - 2012-08-14 04:15:19 UTC
Abel Merkabah wrote:
Deise Koraka wrote:
People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!

Things like:

1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank
2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something
3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi"
3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up
4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk
5.sitting in stations
6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate

Guys...we are a community of sitters.

If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?




Lol love that...pure ossum...
but if miners can sit in belts, I want ISK while waiting for gangs to form up or people to jump through gates...


An I want free kills laid on the second I get in game, after all its only fair....(see how ludicrous it is). They support bots an afkers, hand over fist, but they say EVE is about being responsible for your own gameplay... its laughable. At least we gankers are responsible for ourselves, an we dont blame others for our gameplay.

Botters an afkers should try it one day for something new.