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new POSes and wormholes - what do w-space dwellers need?

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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#161 - 2012-08-13 02:24:55 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
Quote:
^this is also an excellent point.
many WH groups have 20+ POSs in their system.
what's going to happen if you put up 20 deathstars on the same grid? will be impossible to take out with anything you can field in a WH.
definitely needs limits


They said they wanted to remove POS defences which is one of my biggest gripes.


This is a perfect example of the sort of wild speculation we can all do without. The minutes say *nothing* of this sort, and even a cursory read of either the minutes or my blog post would clear this up.

Of course there need to be limits on guns on grid, but if you read the minutes, you will see that CCP was thinking about having POS guns not being able to shoot through their own structure. So if you have 20 POSes on grid, you should be able to find a blind spot with few guns able to hit you. I think that could end up being a really exciting mechanic, actually, and would reward proper preparation and scouting...

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2012-08-13 02:40:43 UTC
Two step wrote:
As promised, my blog post is up: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/08/response-to-response-on-pos-redesign.html

That link isn't to my pod, BTW...Big smile



So basically you did not address anything. All you did was just say docking games are kinda sorta almost completely unlike force field games so its all cool. Then you said yes, we should be able to find online POSes but because we can possibly steal them and make a measly side profit on them we should now lose the ability to conduct covert recon. You did not address the following points at all:

-Multiple POSes on Grid
-POSes anchorable away from celestials will require active probe scan thus ruining covert aspect of w-space
-Ability for system defenders to conduct d-scan from inside the POS

I don't know man, this seems like a pretty poor response to an extensive discussion. You haven't really addresses any of our concerns, you just expanded on your previous points that were already deemed irrelevant to the regular w-space dweller.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-08-13 03:08:23 UTC
Two step wrote:
In 3 years of living (and fighting) in w-space, I can probably count on one hand the number of real fights I have had outside a POS, and I can't see how docking would change a single one of them.


first one that comes to mind, off the top of my head:
nullified T3s can leave a bubbled POS at will. there's no way you can get one off a dock if it's camped properly.

unless you have never ever fought on a station, i don't get how you can possibly state that POS/docking games are equivalent.
to me, this is almost as ludicrous as suggesting fighting on a gate is the same as fighting on a WH and then suggesting putting agro timers on WHs and claiming it wouldnt change anything.

WHs are not meant to be easy. they are not means to be like kspace. they are not meant to have stations.
they are meant to be tougher to live in and not have all to comforts and cotton wool of kspace and stations ect.
frankly i would have expected someone of your background to get this by now.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#164 - 2012-08-13 04:03:10 UTC
Disclaimer: Long post. Two Step; please read.

Ok guys I'm not sure how many of you actually read the minutes but CCP made it clear from the start that nothing has been set in stone and that 2013 is an early start date at best on this starbase revamp idea.


To be honest. I quite like the sound of it, as much of a change it’s going to be for all of us, you have to ask yourself why they're changing it up? To be frank, we asked for it to be changed (and we know from experience that when CCP focus on something they don’t like making tiny changes), and the old POS system is extremely old. P


Do I think negative feedback is good? No. As always, these changes are going to be made by CCP whether you like it or not. However, we have the opportunity here to provide our constructive criticism and advise which will be voiced to CCP through Two Step, and also possibly by the Dev’s looking at this thread. Negative feedback can be provided in a positive light, there’s no use crossing our arms and getting all red faced over these things. CCP are not out to ruin the game for everyone (although sometimes.. some big mistakes have been made). I’m sure they’re going to put a lot of thought in to this matter as these changes affect EVERYONE except missioners as generally miners even have a research POS or whatever..


As some have previously stated, it’s going to be up to us as the wormhole community to present problems/situations we see arising that are unique to wormhole space, then it would be up to CCP to then provide a solution or work around to these problems. Otherwise on patch day, everything is going to be horrible and broken, meanwhile everything is going to work great in nullsec because that is where this starbase revamp is aimed towards (let’s be honest here).


Firstly I like that the changes are going to somewhat simplify the idea of going and setting up an outpost in a wormhole system, it will make it easier for newer players to break out in to wormhole space and in the end get more players stepping up in the wormhole corporation ranks.

It will fix a lot of the problems that we have in wormhole space such as not being able to assemble Tech 3 ships, as well as allowing secure storage for corporation members, etc.


However, what I would hate to see is wormhole space slowly getting turned in to the new nullsec. It sounds in a way that maybe a little too much is getting simplified, like ALL the extra features that are going to be introduced if docking comes in. Having cloning facilities in wormhole space makes it the same as every other place.. there are a few features that should be reserved for NPC stations only. Yes it sounds all good and simple introducing this to wormhole space but it actually overcomplicates things when you look at the details a little closer.

Also, in addition to that - when I say please don’t turn wormhole space in to the new nullsec; Yes simplify the starbase system, but for those of us out there that like to gather intel please don’t take that away from us. For example, when I warp to a POS I can observe several things about that POS that give me a lot of intel.

1. That the tower is online or not (can even check this on dscan beforehand as well, but what if it was to go offline while you’re watching it).

2. How many people are at the tower (please don’t take this away).

3. What defences they have.

4. How many ships the tower potentially has stored or capable of storing.

This fact alone is what us wormhole dwellers love about wormhole space. Take away the information gathering and it’s just like every other MMO.. EVE to me is as simple or as complex as you want it to be, it should pay off for those that want to look at things in finer detail (intel gatherers). Otherwise what seperates the playing level beween the elite and the average? What?
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#165 - 2012-08-13 04:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Senn Denroth
So Two Step: These are some of the direct problems I see with the proposed new starbase system in it's current form.


Clones – I have a big issue here because this is a massive part of wormhole space being the unknown. Wormhole space is separated from K space by a fine line and I believe this is crossing it. Wormhole space isn’t much different to me if I have no effort at all getting to it or if it’s not logistically separated from K space by me having to scan and find me way in/out of it.

Not to mention that if normal clones are introduced to these new starbases: If I’m a new player and I’m away for a week or more from the game, and my only clone is set at a starbase in unknown space. That starbase could be wiped out and I come back to the game with no SP left, my clone is destroyed and me being a new player I have to start over again.

I say it in that way because if it was me, keeping that game mechanic in mind I would never put my primary clone in wormhole space.

Also, will all the modules/ships/corpses drop of people that were docked up and stored at the starbase? Or do you have to shoot all the modules individually after you’ve destroyed the initial starbase core.


Ability to put starbases wherever you want – This to me is also another one of the huge changes that in theory sound cool to a Developer but when you start to think about how it would affect gameplay it’s such a massive change I don’t think it should be one that is decided upon lightly. Think about the huge nullsec alliances that could put several starbases on grid from each other, and all within weapon range from each other. Aside from that alliance being wiped out from the inside out how can you possibly take down 5-10 towers while they’re jamming you / shooting you. If anything, it makes it harder for someone to settle in your system when you think about what you could do with this mechanic. Sure they can set up in your system anywhere but will they be able to take out your death star with their 4-5 capitals that they have been able to sneak in? No.. this idea is even worse for wormhole space than it is for nullsec, because in null you can at least drop in titans and as many capitals on a starbase as you want.

It also adds the element of epic lag, that let’s face it, nobody likes that.. Evil

It also takes away the element of gathering covert intel, combat probes will have to be dropped to find anything, you might as well add local back in to wormhole space because everyone will know you’re there.. and if local is added back in, CCP will have a lot of people leaving the game, including myself probably.


Shield reinforce timers – are they going to exist still? Do we still have shields even though there looks to be no shields on a starbase? Or is the new starbase format going to be similar to a ship where you see hardeners active on the ship/starbase. Or is there just going to be a mini shield near the undock as the minutes suggest?


Docking – Those that are saying undocking games are worse than station games are only kidding yourself. You just don’t like the idea of docking in general. Think about it seriously, if all the carebears dock up.. they can’t see how many are bashing their POS. They can be bumped off of the undock. They can’t self destruct their caps. It will make wormhole space a bit more ruthless than it is now, people will have to start fighting to survive.

So with docking in itself, it can make it easier for newbies in wormhole space, but also harder as they might not have as much of a chance to get their stuff out when you consider the starbase will be bubbled etc.

No doubt there will be more things I think of later.. Cool

So in summing up, considering how little information we have to go on, I hope people can post in a positive manner and some good changes come from suggestions from wormhole members, not just all the nullsec dwellers out there.

I believe that there should even be a line between how a wormhole starbase and a nullsec starbase can be used, features/etc (sure simplify things but don’t make wormhole space too easy like K space, wormhole space is supposed to be harder). But I think that is maybe stretching it a little bit too far. I would still like CCP in all their greatness to entertain the idea for even a short minute. Lol
Zedah Zoid
Good Eats
#166 - 2012-08-13 04:36:25 UTC
"Twostep" wrote:
1) We already have "forcefield games", and people just don't complain about that all that much. The difference would probably be fairly minor between the two mechanisms.


The two are not even remotely similar. Have you ever sat cloaked off a docking point watching the guys running Incarna CQ pushing a dread out of the docking bay into space so they can kill it with the station guns? Meanwhile your bud is motoring in cloaked ready to try to eject and board the unmanned dread and snatch it from under the very friendly guns that will soon be trying to kill it?
No?
I have. In a wormhole off a POS with a shield where the characters were ships instead of bodies. And it was awesome.

Trying to coordinate surfacing a small fleet out the shield simultaneously to try to get a cheap alpha kill on something careless while avoiding being the kill on the other side of that. That requires MANUAL FLYING and looking at the graphic. It's not something you could do in a docking game situation. My very first POS takedown in WH space, the targets hired Noir to help defend and we had a great little fight on the POS shield while negotiations were actually ongoing in a couple of different chat channels. That's playing Eve in my opinion. If that had been a docking standoff neither side would have been doing anything except waiting for negotiations to finish. As it was we got to fly around and take pot shots at each other for fun during that time.
Bamsey Amraa
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-08-13 04:48:15 UTC
I play in EVE because i can live in Wormhole without local ( i vote for delete local everywhere and make only Region local) where i must work hard for get intel i must spend many time watching my targets before we attack they. I love my empty not friendly mysterious space. I love my old POS and i dont want docking stations with all useless stuff. When i want go to my 2m3 quarter i go to hi sec.....

So when CCP start turn my home to null sec or hi sec **** i just simple unsubscribe ang go play to Guild Wars 2. Howgh.
G0hme
Illusion of Flight
#168 - 2012-08-13 04:48:18 UTC
Senn Denroth wrote:
Docking – Those that are saying undocking games are worse than station games are only kidding yourself. You just don’t like the idea of docking in general. Think about it seriously, if all the carebears dock up.. they can’t see how many are bashing their POS. They can be bumped off of the undock. They can’t self destruct their caps. It will make wormhole space a bit more ruthless than it is now, people will have to start fighting to survive.


First of all, thinking every pilot in a wormhole will dock up at the same time when hostiles enter their system is unlikely and naive. No one in their right mind would ever do that, no even the bears.
So you truely believe that not being able to undock from a destructible starbase, due to sieging fleet of instalockers and fast tackle is gonna be healthy for Wspace? It would drive alot of Wspace residents out of Wspace. Hell I would leave Wspace in a heartbeat if I ever found myself in a situation where I had gone afk for an hour and docked up, come back and realize that my Starbase was under siege and the only options I had was to either stay docked and eventually explode, or undock and get insta-popped. GG for Wspace.

I believe it was CCP Greyscale himself who, at Fanfest said, "God hates station games".

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#169 - 2012-08-13 06:23:43 UTC
Thought of another one:
If you put in an undock, you can just sit and wait for a ship to undock and bomb it in bombers.
Cannot currently do this, with a FF you need to actually watch where they go and then hunt them down.

As for clones, i havnt mentioned them yet but yes, obviously a terrible idea to allow cloning in WHs.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
IgnasS
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-08-13 07:49:29 UTC
Clones - Two Step mentioned only switching clones that are installed in your POS and I'm pretty sure he didn't mean jumping to and from k-space.

I think the biggest issue with the new POS is that we all know what subscribers CCP are reaching out to with the rewamp - the null sec dwellers. And null sec is nothing like w-space, but let's not forget that CSM member responsible for new POS discussions with CCP is representing w-space community. As for Two Step's ideas I personally agree on some and don't agree on others. W-space dwellers can only hope that Two Step will hear our concerns and will present them to CCP developers.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#171 - 2012-08-13 08:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Archdaimon
Quesiton for Two Step:

Has it been discussed that if starbases can be put away from moons that they will be placed far far far out in systems?
(Wether through reconnected fighters or inties flying for months.)

Comment to blog:

I can see why setting up a pos might seem an advantage any where. But can you for a moment imagine whole corporations putting their starbase on the same grid.

You should have a pretty good idea of how many towers you have in your homesys. Imagine the amount in polaris.
If we put it all together, we'd be on timedilation ha ha.

It would be seriously crap to attack that cluster!

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#172 - 2012-08-13 11:10:26 UTC
faith and respect for twostep -6,000,000

good luck next time bro, you've undoubtedly lost a huge portion of voters by insanely liking docking games
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#173 - 2012-08-13 11:19:31 UTC
oh and lets not forget how utterly fantastic using the new unified inventory would be if we had twenty towers worth of smas, chas, etc on grid at once

lmao

oh well it was a good run. Wormholes were great for a couple of years. RIP wh space.
kapolov
Doomheim
#174 - 2012-08-13 11:24:04 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
oh and lets not forget how utterly fantastic using the new unified inventory would be if we had twenty towers worth of smas, chas, etc on grid at once

lmao

oh well it was a good run. Wormholes were great for a couple of years. RIP wh space.


I completely agree.

And can i have yur stuffz?
Dino Boff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-08-13 11:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dino Boff
G0hme wrote:

So you truely believe that not being able to undock from a destructible starbase, due to sieging fleet of instalockers and fast tackle is gonna be healthy for Wspace? It would drive alot of Wspace residents out of Wspace. Hell I would leave Wspace in a heartbeat if I ever found myself in a situation where I had gone afk for an hour and docked up, come back and realize that my Starbase was under siege and the only options I had was to either stay docked and eventually explode, or undock and get insta-popped. GG for Wspace.

I believe it was CCP Greyscale himself who, at Fanfest said, "God hates station games".


G0hme, Are you scared to not be able to flee from a sieged wh?

More seriously, we will have to keep scout in space (assuming CCP doesn't give us a force field module like the CSM requested) if we want to keep eyes on our POS in case of siege or have to use nullified t3 with insta undock (I doubt they would get alpha and unable to redock if an attempt fail): not a big deal.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#176 - 2012-08-13 13:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
I will try to keep it brief and I apologize if I have duplicated anything said in the previous 9 pages.

First, I support changes to the POS system. WH dwellers desperately need better user-specific security and roles, not to mention storage options. Changes can be good, and I certainly don't hit this with a blanket "Don't change anything in w-space!". But, I have some concerns...

First, and some will not agree, but the idea of making C4 and below w-space corps live in substandard (medium) or small) POS is insulting. KAIRS lives in a C2 because it is part of how we play the game. We could live in a C5/C6 but simply choose not to for a variety of sandboxy reasons. After seeing the insides of hundreds of wh, one thing is clear, VERY FEW people know how to correctly set up a POS. So the idea that C4 and below are impenetrable fortresses is sadly mistaken. But, as many people can attest to, if someone wants to burn your system, it can be done. It all depends on determination. So having said that, to make C4 and below residents live in "lesser" POS (not large), is a hell of a slap in the face. Not to mention how much more difficult it will make life if for instance, they have less capabilities as they would under the current model. Anyways, I and my corp have a lot of anger building over this potential change and see it as potentially a wh breaker for us.

Docking games. Hell no. This whole idea is asinine and if you make w-space like k-space, people will simply leave w-space, and I think a large portion may just leave Eve altogether. W-space is a refuge from the bs that goes on in the rest of Eve and to take that away would be catastrophic. Now, docking modules where you could see ships but not attack them, hmmm, maybe that is workable. But again, for the love of God, no docking games...

Multiple POS at a moon on the same grid. Interesting. Gonna wait and see where this goes. Same for LOS shooting.

Scouting and Intel Gathering. Gonna have to digest this a bit more as small changes to the proposed POS could vary this greatly. Going to be tough to balance this.

I am not trying to be outlandish here, or brag, but w-space PVP is what KAIRS does. And you don't have to live in a C5/C6 to be a "real" w-space corp. Proof - http://whkills.info/stats/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=98 , just look at the w-space kills. Two Step, we have some folks that would love to talk to you personally (and potentially CCP) to discuss some of the potential POS changes. I think a dialogue is important, and we are willing to spend the time to help make this successful because we all see that change is going to happen regardless of how loud people scream. Lol.

-Nash
CEO - The Kairos Syndicate [KAIRS]
A Founding Member of Transmission Lost [LOST]

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#177 - 2012-08-13 13:20:37 UTC
Some of my initial worries about the POS changes are gone. I'm not saying I'm liking getting rid of the forcefield, but I'm certainly less apprehensive now. The majority of fights aren't at a POS anyway so I think the pain from that is being blown out of proportion slightly.

With proper POS defence still fit to a station (ie dickstar) it's only really going to be large battles involving caps and sieging a POS that are likely to change at all with removing the forcefield. I've not really experienced docking games in the way everyone worries about so I won't try and analyse how it could change things. No-one said that the timers and aggro mechanics would remain identical to other stations I believe?

Picturing in my mind how these new POS could look.... Massive customisable station with guns mounted all over the outside... Awesome!
Thinking of the sort of potential starting fresh could have.... Imagine being eble to sit and customise a POS you'd like to build virtually whilst still sat in Jita for example, Chosing what mods you want where, what guns you want fitted, how things are ordered, how the power is configured (imagine if there were more efficient ways of positioning things like with PI) then just being able to hit a "buy all" button and save the config ready to set out step by step building in your wormhole.

Would be a massive change to currently, but whilst there are some bad points - there are some very big good ones that I'm looking forward to!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2012-08-13 14:10:59 UTC
Two step wrote:
As promised, my blog post is up: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/08/response-to-response-on-pos-redesign.html

That link isn't to my pod, BTW...Big smile


Nice blog. Thanks for taking time to highlight some of the concerns people are having.

The more I think about the "no force-field" thing the more acceptable it becomes, providing CCP design the whole POS system perfectly.

The current pos force field makes life easier in some cases and that isn't what wormhole space is supposed to be about. For example, when you siege a POS, the occupants have until the tower enters reinforced to fly to the sma and destroy all their ships and fly to the labs and take all their BPO's, which is all done in complete safety.

Now if there was no force field then the people under siege would be forced to field a fleet (see what i did their?!) that can make it to their labs to get their BPO's or disrupt the attackers blockade long enough to get their ships to safety.

However, I still don't want the docking games we see in k-space brought to w-space were the skill is simply in knowing timer mechanics better than the next guy. I would prefer if there was no pos forcefield and no undock/dock timers but in their place we get a "docking area".

This "docking area" could be a very small docking port that is protected by a small forcefield and can only be entered with the correct standings. The main idea being that you can undock from the pos and see what's out there. It would also allow nully fit t3's to do what they were designed for and escape from a bubbled pos without the fear of being insta-locked.

The catch could be that overcrowding the small docking area would carry a huge risk of people being bumped into enemy fire by their own corpmates.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-08-13 14:19:06 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:

Docking games. Hell no. This whole idea is asinine and if you make w-space like k-space, people will simply leave w-space, and I think a large portion may just leave Eve altogether. W-space is a refuge from the bs that goes on in the rest of Eve and to take that away would be catastrophic.


This.

I moved to w-space to get away from the broken bullshit mechanics of k-space and i wouldn't be playing eve now, if it wasn't for wormholes.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Meytal
Doomheim
#180 - 2012-08-13 15:01:56 UTC
Two Step wrote:
1) We already have "forcefield games", and people just don't complain about that all that much. The difference would probably be fairly minor between the two mechanisms.

There are people dealing with force field games. People don't complain much about them (first time I've heard that term used). That might usually indicate there isn't much of a problem, or that any problems aren't worth complaining about.

In w-space, we might taunt the force field huggers in Local but we don't worry about it. We know that before too long, the force field will be destroyed and we'll get to squash them anyway if they haven't already self-destructed. POS bashes aren't resource raids; you're not likely to get rich by taking one down. If you go to a POS bash expecting otherwise, well, it's not the game mechanics at fault there. You can get lucky, and you always hope that tower doesn't have Stront, but it's not likely.


There are people dealing with docking games. The forums are filled with complaints about docking games. Any hisec wardec thread usually has people whining about "real PvP" in regards to docking games. People like Cannibal Kane over in C&P even mention frustration with docking games in his very entertaining stories. Nullsec battle reports often contain places where one side is whining about the other side playing docking games, not "coming out to fight", etc.


If that's a "fairly minor" difference, I'd hate to see something major. I guess I just can't understand the logic behind removing one mechanic that has little drama surrounding it and replacing it with one that has a significant amount of drama surrounding it. However, since you said that CCP wants to get rid of force fields, I guess that is the kiss of death for them and POSes as we know them. It's a bit more than just an "idea".


Actually, since other people have poked at the idea but haven't come out and asked, I'll continue to be the bad guy: Two Step, would you describe what you believe to be the differences between force field games and docking games, and detail the last couple of encounters you personally have had with each of them?