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Congratulations to Minmatar - esp qcats
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Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#21 - 2012-08-12 13:34:29 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Bla bla bla. More wasted words and mad chat/talk. Anything interesting going on? Like interesting battols or something. Otherwise meh!


NO U

The moar you cry the less you pee
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#22 - 2012-08-12 18:07:47 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Cearain wrote:
You still don't understand the mechanics do you? We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested. We were doing better than at any time before then. I would gladly have a reset to that point tomorrow.


It's a good strategy, but the ability to kill a bunker with militia alts meant that there was a time limit on its effectiveness in the Amarr/Minmatar warzone, which still isn't the Cal/Gal warzone. If Minmatar'd been able to make T5 cash-outs this entire time, eventually they'd stop buying supercaps "for no reason, that's how rich I am" and just buy alts or PLEX multiple additional accounts to the point where they could've popped our bubble of vulnerable systems whenever they wanted. Amarr never would've seen T5 - but a popped bubble at T3 might've made the warzone somewhat healthy again. 'Somewhat healthy again' is as high as my expectations went. And stopping your enemy from making sixteen times what you make is a goal worth achieving in itself, with beneficial long-term consequences in itself.



From what I understand Minmatar alts flipped one system labapi. They could have flipped others. But perhaps they realized that this is not really a good plan for their own pilots so they stopped. If they flip too many they will not be able to hit tier 5 themselves. But perhaps they were nibbling the same ****** sandwiches as nulli.

As for why they were at tier 5 "so long." Well it did take the amarr about 6 weeks to finally get organized behind the winning strategy. Not to mention Amarr took the biggest hit due to how things were preinferno. And even with the winning strategy it takes time when you have the smallest militia.


Winning strategy is such a misnomer. The fact that you make more progress by totally ignoring warzone control is silly. .


Not sure what you mean. War zone control at tier 5 is what we are discussing. It isn't ignored at all. Is your comment a vailed whine that its not smart to flip systems as soon as you can?


Pinky Feldman wrote:


While it does provide a sort of balancing mechanism under the current system, I think it its more indicative of a broken system than a good mechanic. Actively caring and contesting the warzone, no matter the current situation should always provide more benefit and reward than simply abusing the system.


Actually it was Nullis abuse of the system that cost them half the isk for their lp. Instead of plexing in contested systems they kept farming systems that were already vulnerable. I actaully thought they were just trying to horde more lp before they flipped everything and made a post about it on my corp forum telling my corp we should plex in the remaining contested systems so the lp isnt too watered down. That is why it was such a shock that they announced they were leaving before they could flip the remaining systems.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#23 - 2012-08-12 18:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Pinky Feldman wrote:

Under the current mechanics the Amarr are faced with two possible outcomes depending on strategy.

Losing strategy: Actively contest the warzone refusing to use alts that negatively impact your own militia in any way, while being totally poor and frustrated as you bang your head against the wall and give your opponent more and more ISK as they reflip systems, while your LP remains mostly worthless.


sorry once we actually started to contest systems and get them vulnerable we were well on the way to tier 5. The losing system was when we did what nulli did flip the systems too soon. the other stupid thing we were doing was defensive plexing non essential systems instead of offensive plexing.

If you have alts in minmatar militia you can run missisons no need to plex.


Pinky Feldman wrote:

Winning strategy: Literally stop caring about contesting the warzone and watch the vulnerable systems pile up while you lose most of your warzone allowing the Minmatar militia to hit Tier 5 weekly. Then, use Minny farming alt to get endless supply of SFIs and/or billions of ISK while you PVP to your hearts content.


I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Maybe you stopped caring and contesting systems but myself and allot of others in amarr didn't. We worked to get the front more contested than it ever was right before nulli joined and the map demonstrated this.

Pinky Feldman wrote:

Also, I totally disagree with your statement that being able to push into Tier 3 and stopping your opponent from making 16 times the ISK you are is a worthy objective under the current mechanics.


You can disagree all you want but its really a very touchy strategy to start flipping systems for your enemy and this is not why amarr failed here. We failed because of nulli.

Just think it through. Minmatar wants to flip amarr systems early right? Well how many and when? Assuming the same number of base systems, If they flipp enough systems to amarr so that they can then flip them fast and prevent us from hitting tier 5 they have just made it so their entire militia will be unable to hit tier 5. Why is this? becasue the formulas are the same. If they flip twenty percent of the systems to amarr they just cost themselves tier 5.

Bottom line on this is that although players could do things like flip the other sides systems early it is not best play. People shouldn't say the game is broken just becasue they are bad at it.



Pinky Feldman wrote:

I don't care if you're a super-duper Amarr roleplayer or not, at this point you have no excuse to be in the Amarr militia and complain about being poor.



Not sure why you want to take a jab at roleplayers. Roleplayers have nothing to do with this.

Poor compared to whom? Because of nullis incompetence Amarr managed to make half the isk of their enemies. Are we supposed to cheer about this?

Pinky Feldman wrote:

Chew on this for a second. If immediately after Inferno came out the Amarr had given up on warzone control and just let systems get up to vulnerable while farming on Minmatar alts from day 1, we would arguably be in a MUCH stronger position than we are now. All that plexing effort wasted on flipping and losing systems for no profit could have been going towards making us rich and at the very least we would have made just as much as our Minmatar counterparts. I find it really ironic that the entire time we were saying under the current mechanics there was nothing we could do to effectively fight back, the most effective way for us to fight back was to actually do nothing.


Again maybe you did nothing to lead amarr to have the most contested war zone leading up to nulli entering but you don't speak for all of amarr. The actual map speaks differently. Allot of us worked by stopping the stupid methods of dplexing and immediately flipping systems and we were gaining ground.

If amarr started with a smart strategy right at inferno offensive plexing instead of defensive plexing, and not immediately flipping systems so minmatar could farm more we would have already hit tier 5.

Bottom line nulli screwed us. We can't blame the mechanics for their disasterous incompetence.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Psychotic Sidekick
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-12 18:38:12 UTC
Thanks to Nulli Secunda, I moved up 2500 in rankings on battleclinic! Big smile

But seriously, I've had a lots of good fights from pilots newer to small gang / solo fighting. I've won some I've lost some (and have seen some very interesting fits..) and it was a blast. Nulli does have their fair share of terribad pilots but there are a lot of good chaps who will engage you under non-blob circumstances.

P.S. To those forum lurkers thinking of giving FW a try: don't listen to all the bittervets, there is fun, small gang/solo pvp to be had, it just takes a bit of patience! I have never seen so many thrashers/AFs roaming solo in lowsec. Just fit up a thrasher, fly around the systems by evati / kourm / nenna and I guarantee you will find a chance for a goodfite
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#25 - 2012-08-12 19:39:21 UTC
Psychotic Sidekick wrote:
Thanks to Nulli Secunda, I moved up 2500 in rankings on battleclinic! Big smile

But seriously, I've had a lots of good fights from pilots newer to small gang / solo fighting. I've won some I've lost some (and have seen some very interesting fits..) and it was a blast. Nulli does have their fair share of terribad pilots but there are a lot of good chaps who will engage you under non-blob circumstances.

P.S. To those forum lurkers thinking of giving FW a try: don't listen to all the bittervets, there is fun, small gang/solo pvp to be had, it just takes a bit of patience! I have never seen so many thrashers/AFs roaming solo in lowsec. Just fit up a thrasher, fly around the systems by evati / kourm / nenna and I guarantee you will find a chance for a goodfite


Remember to bring your boost alt too , then those might be fair fights.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#26 - 2012-08-12 20:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Quote:


We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested.

Nulli did make a few systems vulnerable around todifraun.



The funny part is how you have that completely backwards. When Nulli joined I counted 17 vulnerable systems, not 20, and this had taken most of a month. Within a week of Nulli joining there were 15 or so new vulnerable systems, and we thought the cashout would be imminent after some plexing. And then Minmatar organized a resistance campaign, and systems started going vulnerable at a crawl and a few even reverted to contested.

I mean, you can say "nulli only made a few systems vulnerable and spent the entire time farming todifraun", but anyone who's been paying attention and bothered to look at any FW killboard will know that this is not true. The majority of systems that became vulnerable did so after Nulli joined, and in quick order to boot.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-08-12 20:42:54 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Quote:


We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested.

Nulli did make a few systems vulnerable around todifraun.



The funny part is how you have that completely backwards. When Nulli joined I counted 7 vulnerable systems. Within a week there were 20 or so vulnerable systems. A week later, 30. And then systems stopped going vulnerable. I mean, you can say "nulli only made a few systems vulnerable and spent the entire time farming todifraun", but anyone who's been paying attention and bothered to look at any FW killboard will know that this is not true.

The majority of systems that became vulnerable did so after Nulli joined, and in quick order to boot. After Nulli stopped expanding, only a couple of systems became vulnerable.

The Amarr militia's contribution to current events is like a candle in the middle of the forest fire of Nulli's campaign.

When nulli joined 2 weeks ago 30 systems were vulnerable and 3 in possession. 2 Weeks later now, amarr had 6 owned and 41 vulnerable. So nulli only helped getting 10 of those vulnerable, then decided to take a **** and flip them to cash out their 50 navy geddons or apocs after losing 50b or so of "afk merlins" as they claim. So yes, nulli ****** amarr up pretty badly.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-08-12 20:45:12 UTC
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.

Thing is it doesn't require corps, alliances or anything oither than a couple random people with brand new characters to get a system to vulnerable state.

As FW currently stands one really dedicated man would eventually get all but a handful of staging systems to vulnerable as nobody really wants to defensive plex, of course that one man would have trouble flipping those systems but as it stands give one guy a merlin and a little time and he'll get every system prime for flipping eventually.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#29 - 2012-08-12 20:47:18 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.


My 1 key is screwy. Anyway I counted 17 vulnerable systems the weekend Nulli joined.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#30 - 2012-08-12 20:49:00 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Quote:


We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested.

Nulli did make a few systems vulnerable around todifraun.



The funny part is how you have that completely backwards. When Nulli joined I counted 7 vulnerable systems. Within a week there were 20 or so vulnerable systems. A week later, 30. And then systems stopped going vulnerable. I mean, you can say "nulli only made a few systems vulnerable and spent the entire time farming todifraun", but anyone who's been paying attention and bothered to look at any FW killboard will know that this is not true.

The majority of systems that became vulnerable did so after Nulli joined, and in quick order to boot. After Nulli stopped expanding, only a couple of systems became vulnerable.

The Amarr militia's contribution to current events is like a candle in the middle of the forest fire of Nulli's campaign.

When nulli joined 2 weeks ago 30 systems were vulnerable and 3 in possession. 2 Weeks later now, amarr had 6 owned and 41 vulnerable. So nulli only helped getting 10 of those vulnerable, then decided to take a **** and flip them to cash out their 50 navy geddons or apocs after losing 50b or so of "afk merlins" as they claim. So yes, nulli ****** amarr up pretty badly.


When Nulli joined there were less than 20 systems vulnerable..

I counted 17, Typo Interobang counted 19. See the post he made here, out of fear of lolnullitakinthecredit.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-08-12 20:50:00 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.


My 1 key is screwy. Anyway I counted 17 vulnerable systems the weekend Nulli joined.


np as I said the numbers weren't important at all.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#32 - 2012-08-12 21:23:37 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Quote:


We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested.

Nulli did make a few systems vulnerable around todifraun.



The funny part is how you have that completely backwards. When Nulli joined I counted 7 vulnerable systems. Within a week there were 20 or so vulnerable systems. A week later, 30. And then systems stopped going vulnerable. I mean, you can say "nulli only made a few systems vulnerable and spent the entire time farming todifraun", but anyone who's been paying attention and bothered to look at any FW killboard will know that this is not true.

The majority of systems that became vulnerable did so after Nulli joined, and in quick order to boot. After Nulli stopped expanding, only a couple of systems became vulnerable.

The Amarr militia's contribution to current events is like a candle in the middle of the forest fire of Nulli's campaign.

When nulli joined 2 weeks ago 30 systems were vulnerable and 3 in possession. 2 Weeks later now, amarr had 6 owned and 41 vulnerable. So nulli only helped getting 10 of those vulnerable, then decided to take a **** and flip them to cash out their 50 navy geddons or apocs after losing 50b or so of "afk merlins" as they claim. So yes, nulli ****** amarr up pretty badly.



The reason for some confusion is nulli sort of joined 2xs. They joined and immediately left.

The first time they joined we already had 19 vulnerable and several systems heavilly contested. Then they immediately left and came back again some time later. At the time of the second coming of nulli we had several more vulnerable and the amount contested continued to build.

I gave them the benefit of every doubt by only counting the 19 but in fact your numbers are probably more accurate because they couldnt' have been doing much when they were not even in militia.

Like I said I don't think they intentionally screwed us. I think they have leadership that is not really bright.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2012-08-12 21:27:49 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.

Thing is it doesn't require corps, alliances or anything oither than a couple random people with brand new characters to get a system to vulnerable state.

As FW currently stands one really dedicated man would eventually get all but a handful of staging systems to vulnerable as nobody really wants to defensive plex, of course that one man would have trouble flipping those systems but as it stands give one guy a merlin and a little time and he'll get every system prime for flipping eventually.



This is basically correct.

This is why it was an epic failure to start flipping when we were only 9 systems away from tier 5.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#34 - 2012-08-12 21:43:38 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Quote:


We had 3 systems and about 20 vulnerable and several more heavilly contested.

Nulli did make a few systems vulnerable around todifraun.



The funny part is how you have that completely backwards. When Nulli joined I counted 7 vulnerable systems. Within a week there were 20 or so vulnerable systems. A week later, 30. And then systems stopped going vulnerable. I mean, you can say "nulli only made a few systems vulnerable and spent the entire time farming todifraun", but anyone who's been paying attention and bothered to look at any FW killboard will know that this is not true.

The majority of systems that became vulnerable did so after Nulli joined, and in quick order to boot. After Nulli stopped expanding, only a couple of systems became vulnerable.

The Amarr militia's contribution to current events is like a candle in the middle of the forest fire of Nulli's campaign.

When nulli joined 2 weeks ago 30 systems were vulnerable and 3 in possession. 2 Weeks later now, amarr had 6 owned and 41 vulnerable. So nulli only helped getting 10 of those vulnerable, then decided to take a **** and flip them to cash out their 50 navy geddons or apocs after losing 50b or so of "afk merlins" as they claim. So yes, nulli ****** amarr up pretty badly.


When Nulli joined there were less than 20 systems vulnerable..

I counted 17, Typo Interobang counted 19. See the post he made here, out of fear of lolnullitakinthecredit.



Like I said above they may have joined at 19 but then immediately left again. The more accurate measure would be to count the second arrival of nulli.

The fact that the 2 numbers are so different tends to show that nulli had only a moderate impact.. Many of their pilots just kept farming systems that were already vulnerable. That really didn't help amarr as a whole. And for the reasons Kreshant gave they only sped things up moderately.

In the end nulli really just put a huge delay for our ability to hit tier 5.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#35 - 2012-08-12 21:52:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.

Thing is it doesn't require corps, alliances or anything oither than a couple random people with brand new characters to get a system to vulnerable state.

As FW currently stands one really dedicated man would eventually get all but a handful of staging systems to vulnerable as nobody really wants to defensive plex, of course that one man would have trouble flipping those systems but as it stands give one guy a merlin and a little time and he'll get every system prime for flipping eventually.



This is basically correct.

This is why it was an epic failure to start flipping when we were only 9 systems away from tier 5.


Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't wait 1 or 2 more weeks, get more LP, get critical mass for T5 and cash out then.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Dan Carter Murray
#36 - 2012-08-12 21:53:13 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.

Thing is it doesn't require corps, alliances or anything oither than a couple random people with brand new characters to get a system to vulnerable state.

As FW currently stands one really dedicated man would eventually get all but a handful of staging systems to vulnerable as nobody really wants to defensive plex, of course that one man would have trouble flipping those systems but as it stands give one guy a merlin and a little time and he'll get every system prime for flipping eventually.



This is basically correct.

This is why it was an epic failure to start flipping when we were only 9 systems away from tier 5.


Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't wait 1 or 2 more weeks, get more LP, get critical mass for T5 and cash out then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6wbsGx9qw

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#37 - 2012-08-12 23:18:14 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24792054.jpg



I don't mind them leaving at all. Its that they decided to flip a bunch of systems before we hit tier 5. I asked them to just let us finish the job they could stay in fw and cash out after we hit tier 5. Their response was "adapt or die."

Amarr militia was doing fine before they came. They boosted the speed that we were winning systems but we would have been much better off if they joined minmatar instead. They wouldn't skrew up our strategy of waiting to flip unitl tier 5 and just think of the lp we would have gotten from all those kills.


I predict tritanium and pyerite prices will plummet when nulli becomes a massive highsec mining corp (1.0 space) shortly after leaving fw.


Actually since Nulli couldn't reach Tier5 I'd start hoarding Trit&pye if they started HI sec mining and expect the prices to skyrocket
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#38 - 2012-08-12 23:39:53 UTC
Cearain, you've gone from forum troll to just idiot. Stop whining about how Nulli has ruined everything and doomed the Amarr militia. You're a cancer to the Amarr militia, because all you do is act like everything would be fine if you were in charge while using your amazing 20/20 hindsight to criticize and complain about everything the Amarr do as if everything that happens is done so on purpose.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2012-08-13 00:06:22 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Not that it's overly important but there was 19 vulnerable systems by the time Nulli joined up.

Thing is it doesn't require corps, alliances or anything oither than a couple random people with brand new characters to get a system to vulnerable state.

As FW currently stands one really dedicated man would eventually get all but a handful of staging systems to vulnerable as nobody really wants to defensive plex, of course that one man would have trouble flipping those systems but as it stands give one guy a merlin and a little time and he'll get every system prime for flipping eventually.



This is basically correct.

This is why it was an epic failure to start flipping when we were only 9 systems away from tier 5.


Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't wait 1 or 2 more weeks, get more LP, get critical mass for T5 and cash out then.



If nulli stayed and could flip stuff in one day and they continued to plex systems that weren't already vulnerable it would be shorter.

If nulli left it would take about 3 weeks. We were abel to afk plex the systems around frerstorn and eszur US tz. But they were getting defensive plexed a bit during the eu tz. So it would take about a week or 2 of concentrated effort to get vulnerabel and then the flipping would be another aspect. But at least we would have a good shot at tier 5 even without Nulli.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2012-08-13 00:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain, you've gone from forum troll to just idiot. Stop whining about how Nulli has ruined everything and doomed the Amarr militia. You're a cancer to the Amarr militia, because all you do is act like everything would be fine if you were in charge while using your amazing 20/20 hindsight to criticize and complain about everything the Amarr do as if everything that happens is done so on purpose.


I see you have given up on actually addressing the points I raise and instead decide to just insult me.

What I say is not hindsight. I have been saying the same thing for over 2 months. Dont flip systems immediately, and focus on offensive plexing. When amarr started doing this we were on course for tier 5. Anyone who has a brain can see that even most minmatar.

I realize you have not always agreed with me and you might be the type that gets upset when you disagree with someone and are found to be wrong. So perhaps you have some sort of grudge. But really I couldn't care less who you are, or what type of person you are. If you want to argue your point argue it.

If you want to just call people names that will be seen by all.

Pretending it's ccps fault for this epic fail may be popular with some amarr. But really it is not going to help the situation. Lots of people know better. Try to be objective.

When I found out nulli was going to screw amarr I asked them if they would just leave low sec let us get it to tier 5 and then they could make much more isk. I was told to adapt or die. It was clear they decided that low sec was intolerable. They were obviously losing too much face on the killboards and needed to get back to null sec where few know how to pvp.

If you were objective you would congratulate the minmatar and qcats for what they did.

Like you said before I am just a nobody in amarr. So no one cares what I say. I just take careful note of the facts and report them. This was a huge blunder for nulli and screwed amarr. That is all there is to it.


edit: and btw its not like these were my own strategies. They were obvious to many of the miliia old guard. It is really players like you who think you know it all, who have been the cancer to amarr. But for every new player like you who refuses to listen to reason, and just blames ccp, there are other new players who look at the facts and learn. We see a many people in fweddit who started to get with the program and play smart. When you see a stupid mistake call it out. Stop blaming ccp for our own dumb gameplay.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815