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If we are immortals...
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Syler Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
#41 - 2012-08-12 10:41:55 UTC
Greed and power, why else do people wage war.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-08-12 10:47:28 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
In game through the use of clones...what is even the point of having conflict? I dont know why this came to mind just now and its more to the lore of EVE, but if our characters dont die, just simply spawn into a new clone then doesnt that make all conflict in game moot?




It is a sandbox style game so if you want perma-death you could always biomass everytime your pod gets blown up.
Rengerel en Distel
#43 - 2012-08-12 13:25:20 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Yea, but the human condition has nothing to do with the actually point of the discussion. We arent killing family members or fathers or anyone. We are destroying the clones that their conciousness is in. Hypothetically, a father can simply decide to go home the 430th time hes been pod killed.


Hes talking about the NPCs in space which are not capsulars. The process in which one becomes a capsule pilot can be fatal for some. Dust514 is the new form of immortality which does not seem as deadly. Although the original proto tech had the sleepers trace consciousness left inside it.

Clone armies are not practical, even in EvE terms yet. Even the Large capsule ships are still manned with mortals, just fewer than a standard ship.


Oh this is some fiction I didnt know. I assumed that all entities in the EVE verse had access to the same tech


Maybe that's why you post asking for help on every topic, you never actually did the tutorial, listened to the start of the game, read any missions where they called you an "egger", etc.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2012-08-12 19:13:35 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
What else would you do with your time if you are immortal, thanks to cloning?

Explore the uncharted universe.

Develop radical and dangerous new technologies.

Chill out in a hottub.


BORING! Although develop dangerous technologies, thanks to human sacrifice sounds fun.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-08-12 22:11:25 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Logistically, you can only reappear on field while you have the resources to do so. If one side has superior tactics, you can overcome any equal or greater foe. It is implausible to think both sides even with cloning tech could be so unwavering equal as to never gain or lose ground.



Yea that is the point I was making with attrition. It would boil down to who has the greater finances and war machine to continue to put people on the front lines.

to quote some goon poster "no war has ever been decided by ISK"

(being a goon poster his statement was of course wrong and I have high hopes for TEST to be the first major alliance to file under chapter 11)

Getting curbstomped isn't fun and being immortal means that you get to make this experience not just once but an unlimited amount of times. Often the soldiers lose the will to fight long before their resources are completely exhausted.

I don't get the link between the mortality of soldiers and the existence of wars. If anything immortality would make wars cheaper (training people is really expensive) and easier to sell to the public (whole US military seems to be based around the idea that any expense on high-tech shinies, no matter how large, is better than having to present the voting public with a high bodycount).

War is just one of many political tools used to achieve political aims. "Total war" does not mean "war until total destruction of the enemy" but "the totality of my nation's resources goes into supporting this war (while it lasts)".
Total destruction of the enemy is usually not necessary if your political goal is well-defined and within the bounds of the reasonable. You fight as hard as you can (because the defender will fight for his country as hard as he can) until the political or financial cost of the war becomes such that your enemy recognizes it is cheaper for him to give in to your political demands.
The Munich Agreement is a great example of a political goal being reached through military threat, the rest of WW2 is an equally impressive example of a madman leading a war without any sane political goal behind it.

The political cost of wars waged by immortal soldiers would probably be lower which might make them last longer but which also makes it easier to start new wars.


I have to disagree with some of the statement. Immortality through cloning would tend to be rather expensive, Id venture a bet to say even more than training a soldier. With training, you have the baseline for facilities, food, clothing, equipment etc. As a former soldier myself, I think if I remember correctly in 98 we cost you under 25k. Now take cloning where "biomass" cells, hair, limbs, dna material etc...I think that would be far more expensive. Not to mention the scientists and doctors involved in that process.

And you pretty much echoed what I said about wars...it boils down to attrition.

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-08-12 22:14:21 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Yea, but the human condition has nothing to do with the actually point of the discussion. We arent killing family members or fathers or anyone. We are destroying the clones that their conciousness is in. Hypothetically, a father can simply decide to go home the 430th time hes been pod killed.


Hes talking about the NPCs in space which are not capsulars. The process in which one becomes a capsule pilot can be fatal for some. Dust514 is the new form of immortality which does not seem as deadly. Although the original proto tech had the sleepers trace consciousness left inside it.

Clone armies are not practical, even in EvE terms yet. Even the Large capsule ships are still manned with mortals, just fewer than a standard ship.


Oh this is some fiction I didnt know. I assumed that all entities in the EVE verse had access to the same tech


Maybe that's why you post asking for help on every topic, you never actually did the tutorial, listened to the start of the game, read any missions where they called you an "egger", etc.



Have you yet to notice I never respond to you? Do you notice you still attempt to gain my attention? You have it now briefly just so I can tell you what you sound and act like....one who does everything in their power to get attention from another...a crush. Do you have a crush on me? Ill have you know I support the LBGT movement, but I like women. In case you didnt already know. Now, back to though provoking discussion with the other people here with something worth reading.

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-08-12 22:53:14 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
In game through the use of clones...what is even the point of having conflict? I dont know why this came to mind just now and its more to the lore of EVE, but if our characters dont die, just simply spawn into a new clone then doesnt that make all conflict in game moot?


Well if you can't die...what's the next best thing for you to have? Power. What better way to get that power than violently destroying everyone else.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-08-12 22:55:24 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
In game through the use of clones...what is even the point of having conflict? I dont know why this came to mind just now and its more to the lore of EVE, but if our characters dont die, just simply spawn into a new clone then doesnt that make all conflict in game moot?


Well if you can't die...what's the next best thing for you to have? Power. What better way to get that power than violently destroying everyone else.


who simply clone themselves and return so you can continue the futile headbutting?

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-08-12 23:01:08 UTC
I see where OP is coming from.

A bigger question, is why haven't they developed technologies to hold these clones in stasis without killing them? I mean if they die they just get a new clone, but trapping the clone in a living state for eternity would be the new weapon of war. Unless I am missing something.

James315 for CSM 8!
Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-08-12 23:24:13 UTC
cause when you have eternity in front of you you get bored.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#51 - 2012-08-12 23:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Abel Merkabah wrote:
I see where OP is coming from.

A bigger question, is why haven't they developed technologies to hold these clones in stasis without killing them? I mean if they die they just get a new clone, but trapping the clone in a living state for eternity would be the new weapon of war. Unless I am missing something.


Then they just initiate the last saved state. and then there are two of you. The transmission of conciseness is data, data can be copied.
The more dangerous fact is getting a copy of a leaders scan. Then the enemy can clone them and interrogate that individual to the extremes of killing them. Then make a new one and try other methods looking for any info they can squeeze out of this data copy.

During the sansha invasion events, there was a story of a scope capsular who was interviewing Sansha Kuvakei. At the end of the interview he did something to her and she awoke in a new clone back at home. Later a double of herself appeared as the leader of the next incusion site in the flagship.
Wolf Kruol
1st Tikiona Lancers
Citizen's Star Republic
#52 - 2012-08-13 00:23:00 UTC
I'm too sexy for my pod. Twisted

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#53 - 2012-08-13 00:49:27 UTC
Grumpymunky wrote:
Are you suggesting every war ever fought was done so purely for the purpose of killing enemy soldiers? What?


EVE's Killboards seem to say so.

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#54 - 2012-08-13 01:01:14 UTC
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
Grumpymunky wrote:
Are you suggesting every war ever fought was done so purely for the purpose of killing enemy soldiers? What?

EVE's Killboards seem to say so.

Mmm yes, I seem to remember something about killboards being green ... very terrifying.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-08-13 02:38:35 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Abel Merkabah wrote:
I see where OP is coming from.

A bigger question, is why haven't they developed technologies to hold these clones in stasis without killing them? I mean if they die they just get a new clone, but trapping the clone in a living state for eternity would be the new weapon of war. Unless I am missing something.


Then they just initiate the last saved state. and then there are two of you. The transmission of conciseness is data, data can be copied.
The more dangerous fact is getting a copy of a leaders scan. Then the enemy can clone them and interrogate that individual to the extremes of killing them. Then make a new one and try other methods looking for any info they can squeeze out of this data copy.

During the sansha invasion events, there was a story of a scope capsular who was interviewing Sansha Kuvakei. At the end of the interview he did something to her and she awoke in a new clone back at home. Later a double of herself appeared as the leader of the next incusion site in the flagship.


I stand corrected. My lore-fu is weak. Thank you for explaining.

James315 for CSM 8!
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-08-13 02:38:43 UTC
Abel Merkabah wrote:
I see where OP is coming from.

A bigger question, is why haven't they developed technologies to hold these clones in stasis without killing them? I mean if they die they just get a new clone, but trapping the clone in a living state for eternity would be the new weapon of war. Unless I am missing something.



Now that is a thought. And Id think that would put the risk back into war. As others have mentioned, the threat of pain from being exploded may be enough to stop one from returning to battle. But I take the human condition into account. We are hard headed, adrenaline fueled thrill seekers. Some more than others.

So, what do you get when you make an entire battalion of X-Games rejects? To them, pain is part of the job

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
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