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Time to re-balance ores yet?
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Zhade Lezte
#101 - 2012-08-12 19:08:26 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The day it's too safe, is the day of 3 trit and 4 pyerite ISK / pu prices again.
Even then, this would just help 0.0 mineral prices to a point, not strongly reverse their decline.


So where was this argument when the technetium nerf rolled around? Clearly a mineral bottleneck of any sort can't exist based on what materials are required in items players use and lose so technetium being absurdly valuable even before OTEC just meant that free market forces were declaring technetium a proper risk/reward gain and we'd better go and role back the latest patch now that we've gained this wisdom.

(note to the sarcasm illiterate: of course technetium was a problem and needed to be nerfed)

Or perhaps it's just that

Doddy wrote:
Ores have been unbalanced since the day ccp introduced cap ships, it is nothing new.


ore ratios have been off ever since cap ships required absurd amounts of low-ends to build and the drone regions have kept things seeming reasonable in spite of this.


PS: Vaerah I'm curious if your opinions on "risk" in highsec vs. nullsec take into account the hundreds of billions in sov bills paid per month across eve or huge meat-grinder fest sov wars such as the one with 50b in losses I took part in in tribute last week. And you know, the simple fact that you can lose it all if you lose a sov war with another alliance, something that many toppled empires have experienced in the course of this game.
Conrad Lionhart
#102 - 2012-08-12 19:08:31 UTC
I really don't know if people can mine in null sec for profit. It is just too risky.

The only reason I see for mining in null sec is to get the ores for making ships and stuff rather than hauling them in from high sec.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-08-12 19:09:30 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5084/image2qls.jpg

So 3 high sec ores are better than all lowsec and nullsec ores? Most null/low ores are at the bottom? Miners in nullsec or low sec take more risks and have to deal with things like poor refining rates (not to mention station tax). Risk goes up, reward should go up.


If nullsec/lowsec mining was more risky they wouldn't have mined their ore prices into the basement.


Hence the term nullbear, the thing to do...

here it comes Big smile



R E M O V E L O C A L


Actually, I'm kinda in favor of the idea if it also includes removing static belts. I know the argument for keeping local is that it encourages PVP by letting roamers would know if the system is empty or not. However people are creatures of habit and a thorough study of a system's history on Dotlan can give you a good idea when a system is and isn't populated.
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#104 - 2012-08-12 19:25:58 UTC
This is about a glut of Null sec mins in High-sec? What?

Well that's most likely because you need a assload of Trit, and other low end mins to build capitals.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#105 - 2012-08-12 19:52:36 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The day it's too safe, is the day of 3 trit and 4 pyerite ISK / pu prices again.
Even then, this would just help 0.0 mineral prices to a point, not strongly reverse their decline.


So where was this argument when the technetium nerf rolled around? Clearly a mineral bottleneck of any sort can't exist based on what materials are required in items players use and lose so technetium being absurdly valuable even before OTEC just meant that free market forces were declaring technetium a proper risk/reward gain and we'd better go and role back the latest patch now that we've gained this wisdom.


Apples and oranges. On one side an unlimited supply everybody may harvest everywhere (including w-space and hi sec missions and hi sec anoms) vs a totally seizeable material concentrated in relatively small space.

What counts to make price rise is scarcity.

A number of factors caused scarcity in certain minerals.
1 factor (OTEC) caused artificial scarcity in Tech market. Tech is not so scarce, it just used to be seized. That's not a mechanic that CCP should "fix" per se, they have just to make it harder to seize.



Zhade Lezte wrote:

PS: Vaerah I'm curious if your opinions on "risk" in highsec vs. nullsec take into account the hundreds of billions in sov bills paid per month across eve or huge meat-grinder fest sov wars such as the one with 50b in losses I took part in in tribute last week. And you know, the simple fact that you can lose it all if you lose a sov war with another alliance, something that many toppled empires have experienced in the course of this game.



Don't try the "never been in 0.0 sec" card with me because I have been both in NPC, sov and w-space on this or my other characters and even on somewhat enemy blocks.

See, nobody, really NOBODY cares how much you spent, exactly like NOBODY cares if a lone miner gets his Hulk blown 10 times a month, the market price won't budge to make him a favor.

Other 0.0 alliances apparently have no issue settling down for ridicolosuly low ABC prices, if yours suffers from high maintenance costs I am sure nobody cares.
Do you want a commiseration token for you being there?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#106 - 2012-08-12 20:02:28 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Does not matter how and why


Of course it matters how and why. Hey can I save the environment by shooting 6 billion people? I promise that pollution will drop, there will be plenty of oil and other resources for everyone, and the strain on the environment due to human activity will be relatively benign. It doesn't matter how and why, right?

By saying "it doesn't matter that nullsec is safer because it is actively patrolled and policed by the people who live there, admittance is limited, spy networks are actively sought out and uncovered, and every single idiot in a hulk can also at least fly a tackler and has SOME PvP skills", you are in fact removing part of the argument against you in order to "win". It's like saying "Choose any color from this blue color or this other exact same shade of blue". It makes no sense.

But hey, I don't expect many people here to be able to argue rationally.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#107 - 2012-08-12 20:15:58 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

A number of factors caused scarcity in certain minerals.
1 factor (OTEC) caused artificial scarcity in Tech market. Tech is not so scarce, it just used to be seized. That's not a mechanic that CCP should "fix" per se, they have just to make it harder to seize.

Yes just like Dysprosium and Promethium, the old bottlenecks before Tech, were never scarce and their astronomical prices were just the result of artificial scarcity, right?




Roll

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-08-12 20:29:16 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Here's the real reason why this is screwed up.


Quote:
The bounties will keep Rogue Drones as a viable target but will also give the nullsec miners some love, making mining in nullsec a dangerous but valuable profession once more.


Per the Carebearing 2.0 devblog where they talked about removing the drone alloys.

Of course if you check the numbers on "now" versus, say, March 1st, Arkonor's value has dropped significantly, and Crok & Bistot have remained stagnant. The only benefit to miners in nullsec has come from those with the alts and capability to completely strip out grav sites, including the low ends, and even that is a small benefit since we're talking about an increase in income to something that makes up a marked minority of a grav site by volume. Small timers, of course, just get screwed. So much for an attempt to place more emphasis on personal income.

So basically, CCP stated their objective, and then failed to achieve it. The real question is what they plan to do about it. I hope they can approach it intelligently (and allow corporations and alliances to properly tax it at the same time), but my cynical side predicts that they'd just go "oh well lets just buff yield for the nullsec ores", thus exacerbating the problem...

How do you define "failed"? CCP removes a significant source of nul-sec minerals form the game and miners have made up the slack such the current Zydrine prices are only 10% above March 1st, while Megacyte is only 10% below.

CCP Affinity from dev blog wrote:
The bounties will keep Rogue Drones as a viable target but will also give the nullsec miners some love, making mining in nullsec a dangerous but valuable profession once more.

If "give the nullsec miners some love" = "personal income" then perhaps it is a failure.
However, if "give the nullsec miners some love" = "increased incentive to mine" then I'd call it a success!
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#109 - 2012-08-12 20:40:21 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5084/image2qls.jpg

So 3 high sec ores are better than all lowsec and nullsec ores? Most null/low ores are at the bottom? Miners in nullsec or low sec take more risks and have to deal with things like poor refining rates (not to mention station tax). Risk goes up, reward should go up.

We going to get Spod looked at? Ie Spodzilla in the hidden belts? Hard to want to flip a belt when you have to mine that crap rock for a day.

Wait, let me see if I understand this correctly. In one paragraph you believe there is a problem with the value of hi-sec ores, then in the next you call Spodumain crap even though it refines into 85% hi-sec minerals and 15% of the most valuable lo-sec mineral excluding Morphite. Could it be that you really don't understand the problem economically, or is it that you just want CCP to change some numbers so you and others don't have to change the way you play?

No, you don't understand it correctly. I suggest looking at what spod refines into and how much it's worth before continuing.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-08-12 20:43:12 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
you heard it here first people - if you work to make something you don't deserve to get as much reward from it as the feller who never worked for what he has

Just because they can keep other people out of their end of the sandbox should be no guarantee that their sand is more valuable. Some of their sands are already unique to nul-sec. Perhaps they should go stop some of the folks that are digging up their own unique sand and selling it in hi-sec?
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-08-12 20:48:07 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Nullsec on the other hand allows you to stop them 10 systems out in a collaberative effort.


Defensive gatecamping isn't a very useful thing, fyi. If a gatecamp trying to protect something lets anything past, they've failed, and if they don't, they've ultimately given the roaming gang what they wanted anyway - fights - which means they'll just show up again.


I didn't mention defensive gatecamping though, I was talking about watching intel channels, responding to threats.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-08-12 20:53:05 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Pretty sure nullsec is the endgame no? So I would expect CCP to make nullsec the most profitable space to live in.

And with that quote you just killed any respect you earned with you previous honesty.

There is no end game. There is only the sandbox. If others are making your sand less profitable by selling theirs, there are shovels you can use to go make them stop!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#113 - 2012-08-12 21:53:00 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Does not matter how and why


Of course it matters how and why. Hey can I save the environment by shooting 6 billion people? I promise that pollution will drop, there will be plenty of oil and other resources for everyone, and the strain on the environment due to human activity will be relatively benign. It doesn't matter how and why, right?


Strawman much?


Ptraci wrote:

By saying "it doesn't matter that nullsec is safer because it is actively patrolled and policed by the people who live there, admittance is limited, spy networks are actively sought out and uncovered, and every single idiot in a hulk can also at least fly a tackler and has SOME PvP skills", you are in fact removing part of the argument against you in order to "win". It's like saying "Choose any color from this blue color or this other exact same shade of blue". It makes no sense.


Nowhere there's a "you will get a fat gold medal for doing this" on a sandbox. If the other nullseccers are fine living on razor thin margins, it's :sanbox:


Ptraci wrote:

But hey, I don't expect many people here to be able to argue rationally.


We are talking about markets.
The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#114 - 2012-08-12 22:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

A number of factors caused scarcity in certain minerals.
1 factor (OTEC) caused artificial scarcity in Tech market. Tech is not so scarce, it just used to be seized. That's not a mechanic that CCP should "fix" per se, they have just to make it harder to seize.

Yes just like Dysprosium and Promethium, the old bottlenecks before Tech, were never scarce and their astronomical prices were just the result of artificial scarcity, right?

Roll


Two simple facts:

- Remove the bottleneck, the next close bottleneck becomes the new one. Unless they make a boring to tears game with no scarcity we'll always get a bottleneck and that bottleneck will be speculated and used to make profit.

- R32 and R64 are meant to be rare and be bottlenecks. Economy = competition to resources. Tech just happens to have been implemented particularly bad and thus making it easier to monopolize.

CCP wants to fix the monopoly not the scarcity. Scarcity is good, scarcity is a conflict driver and EvE is a PvP game.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-08-12 22:09:11 UTC
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-08-12 22:15:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:


No, you're "Allowed" to make it safer. There's no real way to kick everyone out of your hisec mining or mission running system.


Wardecs, gank them, bump them away...

Also agreed and liked. There are plenty of ways of discouraging competitors from mining in your hi-sec system, though sometimes you just need to be creative.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#117 - 2012-08-12 22:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


No, no, NO! Only hi seccers must learn, adapt and overcome!
Sov null seccers have worked so hard, they are ENTITLED to wealth, success, women and drinks!

Who did I hear talking like this already? Incursioneers before the nerf? Missioneers before their nerf?
See those live in hi sec, half CCP controlled and CCP nerfed the beejezus off their stuff.


0.0 is player driven, those who don't like low profits have to go enforce on the others their politics. And stop accepting infinite botting renters (not talking about CFC here) that after perma Hulkageddon started, they flocked to 0.0 to enjoy blueball safety.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-08-12 22:20:33 UTC
Conrad Lionhart wrote:
I really don't know if people can mine in null sec for profit. It is just too risky.

The only reason I see for mining in null sec is to get the ores for making ships and stuff rather than hauling them in from high sec.


Nullsec is the most valuable mining space in the game, its not inclined to solo miners, but it gives you access to the highest value ore in the game, now the new prices for low ends have brought higsec ores up quite a bit, but given the drone bots are gone that is to be expected. Then add in some block wars and you have high mineral prices, its called supply and demand and if you just leave it the **** alone it will balance out eventually as the wars wind down and ship stocks are replenished.

The LULZ Boat.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-08-12 22:44:23 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


Why the hell would you mean Veld/Scord in low or null when you can mine it in complete bordering-on-AFK safety in highsec? Mining lowends in null is a stupid, stupid idea regardless of the price of Trit/Pye.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#120 - 2012-08-12 22:57:54 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


Why the hell would you mean Veld/Scord in low or null when you can mine it in complete bordering-on-AFK safety in highsec? Mining lowends in null is a stupid, stupid idea regardless of the price of Trit/Pye.



I hope that is sarcasm. It's a bit like saying you won't mine diamonds in Sudi Arabia because that is where you get oil from.

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.