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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-08-12 17:57:53 UTC
Care to share that fit? And a mining fleet without combat ship protection is not much different than a solo miner. Although you still have more options such as using webifiers and aligning to safe spots. Which again makes the tank argument pointless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2012-08-12 17:59:24 UTC
Alyth wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Andski wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...


Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily



i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either...

how many catalysts do you need now to kill one?

with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead...
not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...


Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.


3-4 mil per cat is considered expensiveBlink
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-08-12 18:03:40 UTC
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Abel Merkabah wrote:

Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...


TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining.
If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo...

I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK.


Yeah I go that...lol...was just trying to bait the other person into stating/implying it...lol...

James315 for CSM 8!
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-08-12 18:06:47 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use.
Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.

The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.

Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.

As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4M… or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.


For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.


uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard.
Jacey Distribute
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-08-12 18:12:57 UTC
i think everyone is missing the point

IMO:

for solo mining the mak would be better,
u cant really compare a mak to a hulk in solo mining,
who in their right mind solo mine in a hulk? too much back and forth action

for OPs/non-solo mining of course the orca + hulk is gonna be better than a orca + mak

and for the people saying "oh its just 9%" hell, 9% is a ton of ISK, when it adds up
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2012-08-12 18:15:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alyth wrote:
Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.
3-4 mil per cat is considered expensiveBlink
To be fair, the much-feared “max DPS” Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita prices…

…but if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly. P
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-08-12 18:16:16 UTC
I'm glad the ice market is crashing. It'll make fueling my POS easier.
Tikera Tissant
#88 - 2012-08-12 18:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikera Tissant
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Give an example of this 25% more yield with a comparable fit. Incase you don't bother, i'll do one for you.
Full set of miners, same amount of upgrades, the rest tank (and filling out any remaining slots with some low-CPU stuff since you'll be very low on both ships). This means that we're only really seeing the inherent differences in the ship bonuses which, as it happens, turn out to be +15%+15% compared to +5%… The difference is a bit over 25% (closer to 26% actually, and we haven't included the loss from travel time on the Mack).

In such a situation, the Hulk will sit at ~20k EHP and the Mack at ~35k.

Ripping out the suitcase on the Mack and replacing it with an MLU means you have to start losing hardeners and are edging towards low-20k EHP instead.



Stupid forums.
I was writing the calcs and it went derp on me.

To sum it up.

Hulk with MLUs: 4.713 mining multiplier.
Mack with MLUs: 4.072 mining multiplier.
So hulk is about 15% better.

Hulk with IHUs: 331.24 secs * 3 = 32.6 blocks over an hour.
Mack with IHUs: 236.84 secs *2 = 30.4 blocks over an hour.
So hulk is about 7% better.

Both max setups require losing EHP and need implants to work.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-08-12 18:30:58 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:

The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.


Yes, that is it's role, more yield. That is it's stated purpose, more yield. What's the problem, here? You admitted yourself it has more yield, Hulk working as intended.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#90 - 2012-08-12 18:34:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alyth wrote:
Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.
3-4 mil per cat is considered expensiveBlink
To be fair, the much-feared “max DPS” Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita prices…

…but if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly. P


A max damage cat also does a lot more than 600.

Beyond that half of the cat's gear drops too. So 1.3 mil loss for the ship then half the equipment.

I got a:

gistii-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14311548

pithi-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310410

gistum-c booster & palisade cap recharger http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14308989

All today.

Hulks/Macks also salvage for up to 3 intact plates or 3 power things.


Forum posters give miners too much credit:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310936
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310628
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310010

Those were today as well.
Jacob Creed
Boojum-Corp
#91 - 2012-08-12 18:41:52 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:

The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.


Yes, that is it's role, more yield. That is it's stated purpose, more yield. What's the problem, here? You admitted yourself it has more yield, Hulk working as intended.


My synopsis of the last 4-5 pages of "GRRR damn you new Macks!" seems to be a bunch of angry Hulk pilots who are upset about toys the other kids are playing with.

Sure, they could simply switch to the new toy as well, but they don't want to lose the absolute maximum output and have to field a new fleet of ships. They just don't want anyone else not in a Hulk to have a good time.

Just come out and say it next time instead of replying to people for 4 pages beating around the bush.
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
#92 - 2012-08-12 19:10:53 UTC
Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong.
But, hey I am paranoid Blink

Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future Lol

The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks.
I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2012-08-12 19:16:29 UTC
Vigilant wrote:
Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong.
But, hey I am paranoid Blink

Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future Lol

The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks.
I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch.


Go to lowsec, those belts are rich in rocks.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#94 - 2012-08-12 20:27:44 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:

There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.



Er, real mining happens in nullsec. The Rorqual has a 250k m3 ore hold, and you can fit 126k m3 in the cargo and another 30k m3 in the corp hangars, for a total of 406k m3, with T1 expander rigs. More with T2 but I don't have them on my rorq so I haven't worked it out.

The Orca can be gotten to 100km3 cargo with T2 rigs, and don't forget the 40k m3 corp hangar and 50k m3 ore hold, for a total of 190k m3 in your Orca. Why is 35k m3 presenting a problem to you? Get some skills. Fit your ship right. Mine where you're supposed to be profitable at mining.

As for "the effect on the ice market", noob, ice has been overpriced for a long time, since the goons and the "Gallente Ice Interdiction". Prices aren't falling, they're going back to normal. And that makes us capital pilots happy. Expect more capital ops, and more fluidity in null, since capitals are the sov grinding beasts.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#95 - 2012-08-12 20:50:17 UTC
Sarton Wells wrote:
Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.


"Protection of the fleet"?

I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is ....

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#96 - 2012-08-12 21:04:47 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Sarton Wells wrote:
Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.


"Protection of the fleet"?

I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is ....



I'm guessing:
Scouts on the gates (1+ systems out)
People ATK
Station-less system
Possibly lowsec
Fleet boosts for shields

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-08-12 21:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Suddenly Boom
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-08-12 21:41:46 UTC
I really don't think the ore hold should be larger than a jetcan. It also shouldn't be any tankier than the hulk.
Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-08-12 21:45:17 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Sarton Wells wrote:
Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.


"Protection of the fleet"?

I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is ....



I'm guessing:
Scouts on the gates (1+ systems out)
People ATK
Station-less system
Possibly lowsec
Fleet boosts for shields


Admittedly fleet mining is most useful in null/w-space where there's plenty of counter-measures against organized gankers. In high-sec you can still benefit from fleet boosts and align+web. But above all you need to be ATK. People that want to afk can do so in a tanked mackinaw with reduced yield or come back to update their clones.
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-08-12 21:46:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong.
But, hey I am paranoid Blink

Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future Lol

The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks.
I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch.


Go to lowsec, those belts are rich in rocks.


I'll second this. If anything, HS roid respawn showed be slowed down; so many unused roids in lowsec. It gets annoying bouncing off them when ratting. Could I get a little miner help?

James315 for CSM 8!