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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Tikera Tissant
#41 - 2012-08-12 14:20:11 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:

The belt numbers don't lie, most people are using mackinkaws and it's T1 equivalent, retrievers.


May I see those statistical numbers which shows exactly those numbers in full and through out the whole eve space?

Until than, the majority of the people where I live for example, are still flying hulks in ore belts with orca supports.
None of them have moved to mackinaws.

And as said, solo players will of course use mackinaws instead of hulks. That doesn't mean the macks are the new gods.

And people who were flying retrievers, are still flying retrievers. They are cheap and still good. That didn't change one bit.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#42 - 2012-08-12 14:24:43 UTC
LilRemmy wrote:
Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine.

~pr0 mining~

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#43 - 2012-08-12 14:24:51 UTC
Do you really want eve economy to become the Zimbabwe economy? prices for everything is out of wack, if miners can get back to work maybe this price madness will become sane again, besides if they are truly not bots this just made the hulk a true mining machine for corps dedicated to mining and those same bots will have to move over to the Mack or retriever making them easily identified as such because its all about cargo space where as the skiff is a great solo simi AFK ship with enough tank to make its a obvious choice for solo miner.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-08-12 14:39:03 UTC
OP the mack is hardly the best barge out there.
It has been listed several times in several different threads.
Which barge you use is highly conditional.

You might want to do a little more research next time.



EVERYBODY KNOWS
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2012-08-12 14:47:02 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
I don't need to check anything
…aside from your numbers, if you're going to make those claims. So no, the Hulk is a good upgrade and provides a significant boost when flown in fleets. It isn't significantly weaker and/or it has a good yield increase over the Mack.

Quote:
The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive
…which doesn't matter since nothing stays in the ore hold and since you can always get it out of there before the next cycle hits. It's just there so the game doesn't spaz out when a cycle ends. Since it'll have fleet support (and, most notably, hauler support), the hold is effectively infinite and entirely irrelevant.

Either way, no, the Mack does not in any way obsolete industrials.
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#46 - 2012-08-12 15:22:12 UTC
The ice market has been crashed for a long time - White Glaze is consistently 260-270k per unit and nothing has changed. Anyone who thinks that the ice market is any different either had never mined ice or just doesn't pay attention.

End of the day, ore mining is much more profitable (to the tune of 22M/hour vs about 10M for ice). Like anything, you can't maximize output AFK. So those who want to bot/AFK will mine ice - but they are already the majority of those doing it. Those who want more isk will mine ore and will have to be ATK unless you want to mine a large rock of Veld (with Massive Scordite being the best hi-sec ore right now).

As far as the Hulk vs Mack - Hulk is a higher yield. Period. So if you jetcan or have a hauler it is more isk per hour. If you worry about can flippers or ore thieves then use a Mack. They all have their purpose. For me, I use a Covie and jetcan - better yield than a Mack and not much replacement cost if it gets spaced. Since I mine out a station that has a 0 take for refining, I refine the ore and haul it in with an industrial (since I don't have a 0 take in Jita).
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#47 - 2012-08-12 15:28:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling.
…for which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Quote:
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does.
Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.



Tippia I know you love this, taking apart someones one sided argument, how do you have the patience to hear the same argument over and over in different words ...
It is quite apparent that he/she/it just plain refuses to even acknowledge that there is another side to this debate ..

Keep up the good fight the very least makes an "I hate change thread" entertaining.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#48 - 2012-08-12 15:44:29 UTC
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#49 - 2012-08-12 15:47:15 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

Quote:
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
…except that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can — another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of them… and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.


I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.


In the race between greedy and lazy, lazy (for the moment) is winning.

Whodathunkit? Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-08-12 15:49:38 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...


Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#51 - 2012-08-12 15:52:34 UTC
I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the discussions of mining barge spec changes were taking place.

Given Soundwave's antipathy towards high sec, especially when it comes to afk income, there must have been real wars inside CCP to get these changes through.

Thank goodness some sanity prevailed within CCP and these changes were made.

And yes, I have read Soundwave's comments defending these changes.
He is toeing the company line, which is what he should do.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-08-12 15:52:51 UTC
The rebalance is nice, but they pretty much screwed the hulk over completely.

The yield on the skiff and mack is way too close to the hulk.
The mack gets a good tank.
The skiff has a very good ore hold.
The hulk has a small margin in yield, no tank, and no storage capacity.

Remove the extra yield role bonus from the mack and retriever, and give the skiff and proc a bonus to make it equivalent to the mack. There is no reason why they should have comparable yield to the hulk, when the hulk has nowhere near the tank or storage the other 2 both get. I wouldn't even fly a hulk in perfectly supported and protected null ops, which is what it is now designed for. I'd take a mack so I wouldn't have to pay as much attention, with the hold and the tank for the rat spawns.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#53 - 2012-08-12 15:58:25 UTC
Hulk still has better yield so it's still better for ops.
Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
#54 - 2012-08-12 16:01:01 UTC
I don't see the point of this thread. I'm pretty sure the only industrial with capacity for a full jetcan is the rigged Iteron V. So you are whining because you don't need rigged Itty 5 in ur mining ops anymore? Roll

Also, the patch is like... 5 days old, kinda premature to complain about exhumer prices, isn't it? Roll
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-08-12 16:02:53 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
The hulk has a small margin in yield


Only ship that gets close is Covetor.

Dorian Wylde wrote:
no tank


[Hulk, 31,3k EHP]

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Dorian Wylde wrote:
and no storage capacity.


101k + 50k + 40k m3.

[Orca]

Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement II
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II

Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-08-12 16:09:22 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...


you can still pop retrievers and mackinaws. it's just more expensive or more difficult, depending whether you intend on bringing a buddy. (or seven)

Anyway, people with sense just retreated into mining missions instead of bleating about the gankers before. they are now awash with targets if they have the ISK to blow.

forums.  serious business.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#57 - 2012-08-12 16:11:17 UTC
Andski wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...


Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily



i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either...

how many catalysts do you need now to kill one?

with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead...
not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-08-12 16:14:43 UTC
Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird.
It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield.
Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one.
Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops.
Boo hoooooooooo
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-08-12 16:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Julien Brellier wrote:
Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird.
It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield.
Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one.
Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops.
Boo hoooooooooo


More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.

Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack
Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk

Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#60 - 2012-08-12 16:29:12 UTC
Greetings

Eve pilots. Never a more finicky crew of panty waists and complainers. The reason the barges were buffed was because of a successful never ending b*tching campaign by the "bears" of EVE. The intend of which was to increase mining by introducing roll based ships as opposed to linear progression based ships , making minerals more available, driving manufacturing costs down, and stabilizing the market. Add the addition of Alchemy in an attempt to stabilize Tech and T2 prices, we might also see a decrease in ship prices as well.

2 cents

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"