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If we are immortals...
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Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2012-08-12 02:13:33 UTC
Why there is conflict? Because it is fun!

What else would you do with your time if you are immortal, thanks to cloning?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#22 - 2012-08-12 02:23:00 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Yea, but the human condition has nothing to do with the actually point of the discussion. We arent killing family members or fathers or anyone. We are destroying the clones that their conciousness is in. Hypothetically, a father can simply decide to go home the 430th time hes been pod killed.


Hes talking about the NPCs in space which are not capsulars. The process in which one becomes a capsule pilot can be fatal for some. Dust514 is the new form of immortality which does not seem as deadly. Although the original proto tech had the sleepers trace consciousness left inside it.

Clone armies are not practical, even in EvE terms yet. Even the Large capsule ships are still manned with mortals, just fewer than a standard ship.


Oh this is some fiction I didnt know. I assumed that all entities in the EVE verse had access to the same tech

Oh no.

We are the few (even though it doesn't seem like it).


That NPC battleship you blew up. A few hundred or thousand dead. No clone tech to save their lives.

Same with your ship, asside from a few small frigs (def not the Rifter anymore Lol) we have crews. They may or may not die when you get blown up.

And don't even think of the millions killed each day at Kruuls gardens, or any of the destructible mission stations.


This is one deadly universe... for everyone else.
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#23 - 2012-08-12 02:24:48 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
I mean, I know its just a way of explaining away dying in the game, but you gotta think if we ever evolve in real life to be able to do the same, then what would be the point of fighting when your army and its soldiers can just return to the front lines immediately.
If I evolved to that point? Would that mean I'd have some 40yo guy at a remote location sending computer data to me to help me figure out what to do next? ...what to say? ...how to tie my shoes? In such a case I see only de-evolution, and a greater reason to gank, scam and even sit in my captains quarters moving a trade empire from region to region so to buy bigger and better bombs. It's all about the pretty lights from the fireworks.

—Ω—
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#24 - 2012-08-12 02:32:02 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
This is one deadly universe... for everyone else.


Which is sadly unknown for most as is evident in the OP. There is this disconnect from the little mortals being a capsular, yet in game its purely by ignorance. Unless you are a lore hound, you don't realize how alien you are to normal society in game.

I remember talk of station details from incarna (the good one, the one we never saw) Where capsulars would inhabit a smaller section of the station away from the common rabble and you would be able to see down from the promenade the normal populous of the station in vast numbers scurrying around like ants.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-08-12 03:27:35 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Oh this is some fiction I didnt know. I assumed that all entities in the EVE verse had access to the same tech


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone
http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-06-10


Will read!

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#26 - 2012-08-12 03:29:59 UTC
Why do you even need to come up with hypothetical answers? Ask any person logged in right now whey they're fighting. It has nothing to do with any backstory or rp stuff, unless you're into that sort of thing. It's resources, territory, and fun.

.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-08-12 03:30:54 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
This is one deadly universe... for everyone else.


Which is sadly unknown for most as is evident in the OP. There is this disconnect from the little mortals being a capsular, yet in game its purely by ignorance. Unless you are a lore hound, you don't realize how alien you are to normal society in game.

I remember talk of station details from incarna (the good one, the one we never saw) Where capsulars would inhabit a smaller section of the station away from the common rabble and you would be able to see down from the promenade the normal populous of the station in vast numbers scurrying around like ants.



Its not ignorace so much as it is a person not so totally immersed in the fiction that they are ready to go out LARPing. So when the topic of this came to mind, I was unaware of the NPCs not having the same ability to clone as we do. Why? Because im new and havent gotten to that point quite yet.

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#28 - 2012-08-12 03:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko medes
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
This is one deadly universe... for everyone else.


Which is sadly unknown for most as is evident in the OP. There is this disconnect from the little mortals being a capsular, yet in game its purely by ignorance. Unless you are a lore hound, you don't realize how alien you are to normal society in game.

I remember talk of station details from incarna (the good one, the one we never saw) Where capsulars would inhabit a smaller section of the station away from the common rabble and you would be able to see down from the promenade the normal populous of the station in vast numbers scurrying around like ants.



Its not ignorace so much as it is a person not so totally immersed in the fiction that they are ready to go out LARPing. So when the topic of this came to mind, I was unaware of the NPCs not having the same ability to clone as we do. Why? Because im new and havent gotten to that point quite yet.


Understandable in your case, but I don't think that was entirely pointed at you. Many in even the alliance I'm apart of have that sense of ignorance. Not entirely to their own fault of course, but its just not widely known anymore that those ships aren't manned by capsuleers as well. Its a common assumption by many that those rats are capsuleers like us, but are "npc" and not "a player".

Hardly the case as you've come to discover.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#29 - 2012-08-12 03:59:50 UTC
That assumes that all conflict centers around survival.

No, it's more than that. Politics, ideals, greed, boredom. All of these can become concerns for gods.
Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-08-12 04:51:59 UTC
(tattoo voice) It's a game bawss!!! A GAME! (points at computer)
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-08-12 04:58:01 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
I think in that age, everyone just gets together and smoke something.

I agree. The different groups would probably enter into "non-aggression pacts" of a sort with each other. The only conflict would come about when they were bored, or decided to throw their now-inexpensive lives away over some small drama.

In addition to single-serving allies that you only have out of geographical convenience, you would now have enemies of that description.

EVE is real. And that's scary. Big smile

Occasionally plays sober
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#32 - 2012-08-12 05:54:42 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
Lord Arakkis wrote:
I think in that age, everyone just gets together and smoke something.

I agree. The different groups would probably enter into "non-aggression pacts" of a sort with each other. The only conflict would come about when they were bored, or decided to throw their now-inexpensive lives away over some small drama.

In addition to single-serving allies that you only have out of geographical convenience, you would now have enemies of that description.

EVE is real. And that's scary. Big smile

Clogging your guns with rifters...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-08-12 06:30:58 UTC
Us Pod pilots might be immortal, but we are still human. Humans do dumb ****.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Kira Waifu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-08-12 07:29:56 UTC
Are capsuleers really immortal though? Whenever a capsuleer dies, their brain is simply copied and put into a new clone. The original capsuleer is still toast though, no matter what the clone might think. Unless EVE has some wizardry about consciousness being transferable. Even then, the transfer process can still get messed up and kill you, according to the mail that gets sent out after biomass.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-08-12 08:10:44 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Logistically, you can only reappear on field while you have the resources to do so. If one side has superior tactics, you can overcome any equal or greater foe. It is implausible to think both sides even with cloning tech could be so unwavering equal as to never gain or lose ground.



Yea that is the point I was making with attrition. It would boil down to who has the greater finances and war machine to continue to put people on the front lines.

to quote some goon poster "no war has ever been decided by ISK"

(being a goon poster his statement was of course wrong and I have high hopes for TEST to be the first major alliance to file under chapter 11)

Getting curbstomped isn't fun and being immortal means that you get to make this experience not just once but an unlimited amount of times. Often the soldiers lose the will to fight long before their resources are completely exhausted.

I don't get the link between the mortality of soldiers and the existence of wars. If anything immortality would make wars cheaper (training people is really expensive) and easier to sell to the public (whole US military seems to be based around the idea that any expense on high-tech shinies, no matter how large, is better than having to present the voting public with a high bodycount).

War is just one of many political tools used to achieve political aims. "Total war" does not mean "war until total destruction of the enemy" but "the totality of my nation's resources goes into supporting this war (while it lasts)".
Total destruction of the enemy is usually not necessary if your political goal is well-defined and within the bounds of the reasonable. You fight as hard as you can (because the defender will fight for his country as hard as he can) until the political or financial cost of the war becomes such that your enemy recognizes it is cheaper for him to give in to your political demands.
The Munich Agreement is a great example of a political goal being reached through military threat, the rest of WW2 is an equally impressive example of a madman leading a war without any sane political goal behind it.

The political cost of wars waged by immortal soldiers would probably be lower which might make them last longer but which also makes it easier to start new wars.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-08-12 08:16:50 UTC
Kira Waifu wrote:
Are capsuleers really immortal though? Whenever a capsuleer dies, their brain is simply copied and put into a new clone. The original capsuleer is still toast though, no matter what the clone might think. Unless EVE has some wizardry about consciousness being transferable.

Does it matter? the new clone has all the memories, experiences, ... of the dead capsuleer, so how can you say it is not "him"?

How do you know that your consciousness persists when you go to sleep or get knocked out - that you are still the old "me" when you wake up and not a new "me" that just has access to your old "me"'s memories and body?

.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-08-12 09:07:35 UTC
Conflict is the result of failed socialization.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-08-12 09:08:19 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
What else would you do with your time if you are immortal, thanks to cloning?

Explore the uncharted universe.

Develop radical and dangerous new technologies.

Chill out in a hottub.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-08-12 09:28:16 UTC
Lord Arakkis wrote:
In game through the use of clones...what is even the point of having conflict? I dont know why this came to mind just now and its more to the lore of EVE, but if our characters dont die, just simply spawn into a new clone then doesnt that make all conflict in game moot?


On the contrary it makes death and murder a sport or past time.

Anyway lore wise, capsuleers are not really immortal, they can be killed if they don't have a clone to jump to after death.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2012-08-12 10:38:33 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Why we need space.


That video linked to other stand up comedies. I burned an entire night on that ****.

You're a terrible person.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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