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Time to re-balance ores yet?
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Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#41 - 2012-08-12 01:24:11 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5084/image2qls.jpg

So 3 high sec ores are better than all lowsec and nullsec ores? Most null/low ores are at the bottom? Miners in nullsec or low sec take more risks and have to deal with things like poor refining rates (not to mention station tax). Risk goes up, reward should go up.


If nullsec/lowsec mining was more risky they wouldn't have mined their ore prices into the basement.


Hence the term nullbear, the thing to do...

here it comes Big smile



R E M O V E L O C A L

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-08-12 01:24:16 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
In Null sec almost every single mineral for less than Jita price is almost instantly vaccumed up by hungry Capital Corps.


Not necessarily because the cost (fuel, effort) of importing minerals is not zero.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-08-12 01:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Hence the term nullbear, the thing to do...

here it comes Big smile



R E M O V E L O C A L



Nullsec without local wouldn't be any more dangerous for miners, since grav sites have to be probed out. People would just take turns for "dscan, fleet warp miners to POS" duty. It'd certainly discourage any other sort of activity, however. But that's kind of counter-productive when the goal is to get people to live in nullsec, not just log in supercapitals once in a while when they're not running hisec incursions.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#44 - 2012-08-12 01:26:49 UTC
Xearal wrote:
it's simply a market effect.. it's not the ores themselves that are the problem, tweak them and you will just change prices around a bit.

Due to permageddon, a lot of high sec mining has gone boom, high sec mining is one of the prime suppliers of low end minerals in empire, as the low end ores mined in null are all used by capital production down there. The reason the price for all those low ends is going up is simply because supply cannot keep up with demand for them.

I'm a high sec manufacturer myself, and while I can easily get my hands on all the high ends I need, tritanium, pyerite and mexalon ( and isogen to a degree ), are much harder for me to get in sufficient quantities to have my operations run smoothly.
I'm quite sure I'm not the only manufacturer with this problem. The reason being that demand for high end minerals are much lower than the low end minerals when it comes to amounts, combine this with a massive surplus of these high ends going to market in empire by the bucketload from nullsec mining ops, and you get an oversupply of these, while low ends are still not catching up.

The last blog on mining was that it had gone up somewhat in highsec, a little more in low, and massively up in nullsec.
As miners in null sec generally go for the ABCs, as that's supposed to be the most valuable ore, they oversupply the markets with their high end minerals, killing their own prices. Meanwhile due to gankage, high sec mining is lacking behind in supplying the required low end minerals for manufacturers to crank up their production further, thus creating this 'imbalance'.
Also note, that afaik, the low end minerals also are available in null sec to mine. It's not like high sec is the only place to mine these. But due to their low value per m3, shipping these to empire isn't worth a lot.
I know some miners of low ends that see the prices in Jita which are higher than in our region, but they do the math, and having them exported by jumpfreighter costs them more than the difference in price, so it's not worth it for them to export them to Jita.
instead, they are sold/used locally by manufacturers, my guess is that this happens even more in nullsec where those mienrals would be very usefull in manufacturing capital ships and whatnot.

you can't simply wave a magic wand, invent some new ores/tweak current ones, and this 'problem' will go away. this would simply shift prices around a bit, until another equilibrium is reached. As mining in null is at the moment more prolific than in high, whatever this new equilibrium would be, would still favor high sec minerals, simply because they are mined less, and exporting the low end minerals is simply not profitable.

The thing is, almost all of that has happened before. All things being equal, I would agree it's just the market. Thing is, hulkageddon doesn't have the effect people think it does.

We've had two huge changes to the game. CCP said they would look at mineral prices in the future and adjust them as necessary in response to these two changes. The point of my post was, I think that time is now.

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-08-12 01:33:59 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
The point of my post was, I think that time is now.


Still too early, especially with the barge changes being so recent.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#46 - 2012-08-12 01:34:11 UTC
Andski wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Hence the term nullbear, the thing to do...

here it comes Big smile



R E M O V E L O C A L



Nullsec without local wouldn't be any more dangerous for miners, since grav sites have to be probed out. People would just take turns for "dscan, fleet warp miners to POS" duty. It'd certainly discourage any other sort of activity, however. But that's kind of counter-productive when the goal is to get people to live in nullsec, not just log in supercapitals once in a while when they're not running hisec incursions.


Because no one uses probes Shocked

So don't make the PvP zone hard or no one will show up?

Ashdown Forest, staring Winnie the Null

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#47 - 2012-08-12 01:35:20 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Right, small tweaks not massively upending the system like removing drone poo..What?


Adding drone poo in the first place was the big mistake.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-08-12 01:39:09 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Because no one uses probes Shocked

So don't make the PvP zone hard or no one will show up?

Ashdown Forest, staring Winnie the Null


Your point fell apart when you used the term "PvP zone."

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-08-12 01:44:48 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5084/image2qls.jpg

So 3 high sec ores are better than all lowsec and nullsec ores? Most null/low ores are at the bottom? Miners in nullsec or low sec take more risks and have to deal with things like poor refining rates (not to mention station tax). Risk goes up, reward should go up.

We going to get Spod looked at? Ie Spodzilla in the hidden belts? Hard to want to flip a belt when you have to mine that crap rock for a day.


If you have a small belt upgrade there's no reason not to get to the next indy level and then you have 2 belts. You keep doing this until you have level 5 then you just mine around the big ******* rock and after stripping that belt you go to the next and mine around the big ******* rock and you keep doing this because there is no way you should be able to mine out all of the belts in a system before the first one you stripped respawns a fresh belt. If you haven't figured out how to time your belt cycling this long after those changes its no wonder your in drone space.

I absolutely know how to rotate the industry belts. Mining around spod isn't the point.

Well the only other choice of point is that you don't under stand how markets work, being in null doesn't guarantee you the best ore you get the 4 most valuable ores in the game, they have to give highsec something with all the miners there.

The LULZ Boat.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#50 - 2012-08-12 01:55:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Because no one uses probes Shocked

So don't make the PvP zone hard or no one will show up?

Ashdown Forest, staring Winnie the Null


Your point fell apart when you used the term "PvP zone."


I was mocking you.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#51 - 2012-08-12 02:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Bootleg Jack wrote:


here it comes Big smile



R E M O V E L O C A L



Except, miners can dscan too. Better yet, I can have a cloaky alt sitting off the gate, and be gone before you ever even know I was there.

If you remove local, you will have to dscan each and every system, all the time. THEN you'll have to probe me down because as has been said, I'll be in the grav sites not the belts. Plus you will be in my turf. With my POSes and my jump bridges. Where does that jump bridge go, I wonder? Damn, there was a Rorqual here a second ago - he must have logged. Oh wait, or did he jump out to a cyno beacon in a nearby system? You know who has the advantage in w-space. The home team. Now imagine that advantage multiplied by my batphone (can't cyno in caps and supercaps in w space, can you?), my blue allies, and my knowledge of the region. In fact, I think using bait mining ops would be a fantastic way to hot drop wanna be piwate gangs.

here it comes Big smile

Dumbest. Idea. Ever. But please - remove local if you want.
Ginger Barbarella
#52 - 2012-08-12 03:08:16 UTC
Why are so many of you so (expletive deleted) ready to screw up the game more? Give it a freakin' rest already. Go screw with WoW...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#53 - 2012-08-12 03:16:43 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Why are so many of you so ready to screw up the game more?


Which parts of the discussion do you consider woudl "screw up the game more"?

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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#54 - 2012-08-12 03:35:51 UTC
Here's the real reason why this is screwed up.


Quote:
The bounties will keep Rogue Drones as a viable target but will also give the nullsec miners some love, making mining in nullsec a dangerous but valuable profession once more.


Per the Carebearing 2.0 devblog where they talked about removing the drone alloys.

Of course if you check the numbers on "now" versus, say, March 1st, Arkonor's value has dropped significantly, and Crok & Bistot have remained stagnant. The only benefit to miners in nullsec has come from those with the alts and capability to completely strip out grav sites, including the low ends, and even that is a small benefit since we're talking about an increase in income to something that makes up a marked minority of a grav site by volume. Small timers, of course, just get screwed. So much for an attempt to place more emphasis on personal income.

So basically, CCP stated their objective, and then failed to achieve it. The real question is what they plan to do about it. I hope they can approach it intelligently (and allow corporations and alliances to properly tax it at the same time), but my cynical side predicts that they'd just go "oh well lets just buff yield for the nullsec ores", thus exacerbating the problem...

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#55 - 2012-08-12 05:50:14 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Here's the real reason why this is screwed up.


Quote:
The bounties will keep Rogue Drones as a viable target but will also give the nullsec miners some love, making mining in nullsec a dangerous but valuable profession once more.


Per the Carebearing 2.0 devblog where they talked about removing the drone alloys.

Of course if you check the numbers on "now" versus, say, March 1st, Arkonor's value has dropped significantly, and Crok & Bistot have remained stagnant. The only benefit to miners in nullsec has come from those with the alts and capability to completely strip out grav sites, including the low ends, and even that is a small benefit since we're talking about an increase in income to something that makes up a marked minority of a grav site by volume. Small timers, of course, just get screwed. So much for an attempt to place more emphasis on personal income.

So basically, CCP stated their objective, and then failed to achieve it. The real question is what they plan to do about it. I hope they can approach it intelligently (and allow corporations and alliances to properly tax it at the same time), but my cynical side predicts that they'd just go "oh well lets just buff yield for the nullsec ores", thus exacerbating the problem...


The problem is they were actually over succesful with their objective, not that they failed. As the numbers for mining show, there has been a dramatic increase in null sec miners all looking for those 'rare now drone poo has been removed' minerals. So had the number of miners remained static, CCP were right, the prices would have gone up. Since players decided en mass to start mining in Null Sec, prices have dropped. It doesn't matter if 70% of those are mining for their own Corp, it still means a lot more is being mined and we can assume useage has stayed within 10%. Since removing drone poo shouldn't be affecting how many ships are getting blown up.

So it's a player choice currently driving the low market, and if half those players run off to high sec to mine trit, the market will spin the other way and tritium will crash.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#56 - 2012-08-12 06:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
James 315 wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
As for nullsec being safer - it is. But it's not magically safer. We MAKE it safer.


It doesn't matter why nullsec is safer, just that it is safer.

I disagree. If you have territory and you protect it, you're entitled to the benefits. Likewise, if you fail to protect your space and lose access (as has happened to countless empires countless times), then you suffer the consequences. Also, I'd argue that if you can lose your space, it wasn't really "safe" to begin with. Smile


I am the proponent of the "if nullsec is safer than hi sec then prices will be lower than hi sec".

It's quite simple, actually.

Regardless of *why* or *how* or *by whom* 0.0 is made safer, it's just safer than hi sec.

That's all what matters.

Minerals are not rats, they are not an ISK faucet, they don't magically give "the bounties".
Therefore minerals markets - unless we find the rare "pax amarria" NPC anomaies - are completely demand and supply driven.

It's pure, hypercapitalistic, demand and supply driven market, that is the purest EvE market and NO WAY should it be changed, else the most EvE basic sandbox concept dies.

All the people who keep killing hi sec miners / imposing racket on them / imposing them to pay mercs to stay alive made hi sec unsafe, more unsafe than 0.0.

Naturally if a place is unsafe the costs rise and so the low ends rise and when low ends rise, due to how everything is made in EvE (an approximately fixed basket / minerals proportion) then high ends tank.


So, everyone who are annoyed with how stuff is going, file their complaints to Bat Country and similar, THEY are making hi sec minerals expensive AND high ends cheap.


Only ways to make high ends "worthwhile" again is to introduce:

- A WoW-esque imposed game mechanics (noooooo!)
- Make 0.0 miners die sometimes Attention
- Greatly reduce ABC minerals in 0.0 so they become scarce.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-08-12 06:21:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- Make 0.0 miners die sometimes Attention

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=14301645

nope 0.0 miners don't ever die anywhere

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-08-12 06:26:36 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
We going to get Spod looked at? Ie Spodzilla in the hidden belts? Hard to want to flip a belt when you have to mine that crap rock for a day.


Spod could be "fixed" by taking out the tritanium and sticking in a couple of hundred Zydrine per refine batch (and perhaps a trace of Nocxium). Omber could be "fixed" by taking out tritanium and putting in some Mexallon. I'd also "fix" Pyrox by adding a little Pyerite and taking out the Noxcium — that mineral should not be present in static belts in hisec.

Teensy little tweaks: no sledgehammer of gamechanging doom required.


when i started eve noxcium was 70 isk each. 77 at the most... now its 500 isk, nocxium doesn't need removed from highsec, maybe lowsec ores should drop more noxc though
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-08-12 06:29:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- Make 0.0 miners die sometimes Attention

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=14301645

nope 0.0 miners don't ever die anywhere


so? other then the rorqual this happens in highsec a lot with suicide ganks ect.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-08-12 06:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Herping yourDerp wrote:
so? other then the rorqual this happens in highsec a lot with suicide ganks ect.


there are also far more miners in hisec and far more players looking to gank them

also entire mining fleets are rarely killed like that in hisec

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar