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Crime & Punishment

 
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Can Flipping, disappointing

First post
Author
Jadeleth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-08-10 00:41:03 UTC
Hey, system is clear, as its clearly sick...

If I (player) meet you, take your cell-phone and put it in the nearest trash can, you can take it back... but if you do it in this game I can shoot you and, after fifteen minutes, if one of your friends tries to disarm me he get shooted by police... lot of sense. Ugh

Just to answer your perfectly clear statement: it is impossible for me to be engaged if I consider every thing you touch as lost forever and ever in the void of space... I can imagine this situations only if it ends with me yelling: "please wash your hands! Wash them with fire!"

Quote:
If I steal from your can, I cannot shoot you. You can choose to shoot me, ignore me, or go elsewhere.


I cannot choose to take back what is mine, nobody gave me choice of "not being robbed" and I'm asking for the option "being robbed and defend myself", that means also taking my ores back.

Quote:
I have a few times tricked people into doing just that, but it's their own stupidity that kills them, not a broken game mechanic.


not stupidity, ignorance of game rules maybe... and the bad habit to put logic where's darkness... like thinking your cell-phone it's still yours and taking it back from the trash can.

I'm pressing for changes because I've understood the current system and I found it too easy to be used inappropriately.
If you tell me all is working as intended... screw mining, piracy I'm coming... but this is ruin miners (or "unsecure" miners as some here says) game in favor of some coward PVPer.

Quote:
Is this your opinion? If so, that's nice, but it's not CCP's.


Are you CCP? Because if you aren't I want to play this game too: Isn't this CCP's opinion? If so, that's nice, but Santa won't give you any present this year and your pet doesn't love you, it was a secret but it's time for me to tell you, it's with you just for food!

Keep assuming that the problem is "me" finding the game "too hard" or that I'm too lazy/ignorant to mine in a secure manner... I'd describe this game as easy-normal, yes there are situations that needs some brain cells activity but it's mostly as repetitive as many others MMO.

This annoying problem of getting back stuff can be solved way too easily: I use to keep a second character with 0 skill point in a rookie ship in a nearby station just to reflip containers and "steal" from him my stuff back, pretty sure he doesn't care... of course after we've blowned the can flipper.

If you think I'm doing this as a complain for "how rude the game/the world/my life" is to me... re-think that. Blink

Quote:
Have the combat pilot drop the initial can so that he gains the aggro in the event of a can flip.


That's not a counter, that's losing a combat ship as it would be one combat pilot against thief's corporation, he doesn't wait anything else; for the other choices, believe me it's really not an effort since we've orcas and PVP capabilities (ok, we've not them always, player use to sleep sometimes, not to say social life, in the week-ends we're almost screwed to be true).
For GSCs, it's a matter of dimensions Blink.

Quote:
EVE is EVE because it's gritty, complex, and unsafe.


And I love it this way!

Want to take down this player's ship in high-sec? Then waiting him to reflip the can isn't enough, go suicide ganking on him!
He isn't worth suicide ganking? Go looking for players to kill in lower secs... What? they're too strong/organized for you and so you prefer unexperienced mining groups... I see... Now who's blaming other for his shortcomings?

Tell me where's the complexity in "let's hope he's a noob"... go playing basketball with kindergarten kids if that's the kind of "complexity" you like.

That environment will attract the 'right' players --> soon in the "Noble Exchange": SWAG hats and YOLO (if you're not a capsuleer) T-shirts! Straight

I mean: this system aids players who wants some PVP but are to afraid to lose their ships in real PVP, if these are the 'right' player you're talking about, hell yeah that's not my game!
smokess
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-08-10 11:23:37 UTC
Actually, can flipping granting temporary kill rights did not used to exist.

The mechanic was purposefully added as a means to allow miners to defend themselves against people stealing from jet cans. Before the mechanic you could waltz up to someone's can, flip it and warp off. The only way to stop you was for someone to bump you while their corp scooped the can, or suicide gank you.

i.e. It is an intended mechanic.
Jadeleth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-08-10 12:50:46 UTC
Quote:
Actually, can flipping granting temporary kill rights did not used to exist.


They should have left it this way, not best but better than now...

As many as told here, miners can defend themselves with GSCs, orcas, other ways. And with previuos system if I flip a can and leave... You've just to use my new or maybe "reflip" it to rename; no rights for me and no rights for you.

Now, temporary killing rights may allow you to stop a thief if you're fast enough to scramble him as soon as he takes some stuff but pre-alligned ships can still empty your can and warp almost instantly away. Ability to defend the jet can: Lost.

In the meantime we've semplified pirates' lives introducing this "tactic" of can-flipping, wait for your corp to gain aggression and easily fight a "many Vs one" battle.

It doesn't seems intended for miners defense and if it is, it failed.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#24 - 2012-08-10 13:04:45 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:


Now, temporary killing rights may allow you to stop a thief if you're fast enough to scramble him as soon as he takes some stuff but pre-alligned ships can still empty your can and warp almost instantly away. Ability to defend the jet can: Lost.

In the meantime we've semplified pirates' lives introducing this "tactic" of can-flipping, wait for your corp to gain aggression and easily fight a "many Vs one" battle.

It doesn't seems intended for miners defense and if it is, it failed.



And...if this person flips and leaves, what keeps you from flipping and leaving to avoid confrontation?


You're pulling too many crazy off-base arguments and stringing them together into one incoherent whole that still makes no sense.

Maybe all you need is a nice obligatory
Quote:
HTFU and welcome to EVE.


FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#25 - 2012-08-10 14:12:55 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:
If I (player) meet you, take your cell-phone and put it in the nearest trash can, you can take it back... but if you do it in this game I can shoot you and, after fifteen minutes, if one of your friends tries to disarm me he get shooted by police... lot of sense. Ugh


Welcome to New Eden. The laws are different here. If I take your cell phone, you are completely in your rights to beat me senseless, and only YOU can choose whether or not that happens.

Jadeleth wrote:
nobody gave me choice of "not being robbed"


Sure they did. Don't put it where I can take it. There's nothing forcing you to use a jetcan. Your own laziness allows canflippers to steal your stuff. Jetcan mining is like leaving your door standing open: it doesn't make it okay for someone to walk in and take your stuff, but the rest of us are going to wonder just what you expected to happen.

Jadeleth wrote:
not stupidity, ignorance of game rules maybe... and the bad habit to put logic where's darkness... like thinking your cell-phone it's still yours and taking it back from the trash can.


But that won't invoke Concord, which is what I was talking about there. I cannot cause Concord to shoot you. There used to be a way to do that, but it was patched nearly two years ago as I understand it.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#26 - 2012-08-10 15:12:50 UTC
My view is this, its so that you can still duel people in your fleet without getting Concorded.
No More Heroes
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#27 - 2012-08-10 17:08:33 UTC
Quit screwing around with cans and go to low/null and shoot whomever you please?

.

CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2012-08-10 17:09:30 UTC
Off topic and non-constructive posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Marcus Ichiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-08-10 17:56:14 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:
ccp is allowing pvp in high security areas, which are supposed to be places for players who don't like PVP


I stop reading there. That is 100% incorrect.

If you don't want PVP, stay docked.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-08-10 18:48:08 UTC
2/10

On the chance that this isn't a troll post:

I support the expansion of can flipping flags to include the owner's alliance, not just corporation. I do not support it being owned by the fleet.

Also, this will probably be "fixed" by CCP Greyscale's awful crimewatch ideas, so don't worry too much about it.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-08-10 22:06:01 UTC
With the new selection of Mining Barges, and Exhumers, and Orcas, I don't really have any sympathy for people suffering from can flippers.
Doddy
Excidium.
#32 - 2012-08-10 22:49:24 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:
Again you saying there's no safe place... I don't want a spot to hide and pray, I blame can flip rules since they allow unfair fights and even a way to use CONCORD for piracy acts.

Have I asked to rush CONCORD against thieves? No, I just want fair ways to counter can flippers...

I'm really happy to "be touched in PVP" when I'm playing with friends, it sucks if I'm with them but only one is allowed to fight...

Isn't it clear?


CCP created the corp to allow players to work together and defend each other. You and your friends chose not to use this mechanic. You chose to be a victim.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-08-10 23:02:50 UTC
OP is playing the wrong game. End of discussion

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe

Russell Casey
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-08-11 01:45:21 UTC
Wait...people still solo jetcan mine after the last patch? I figured 1.2 was CCP taking can-flipping for a long walk with a shovel. Also, soon as he takes that ore he's flagged to your entire corp/alliance and his friends can't help him outside repping which will flag them too in a belt where there's no place to dock.

The odds can't get much better in your favor.
Kalosine
Core Collapse
#35 - 2012-08-11 06:27:28 UTC
I'll admit I am very new to Eve but...

Don't they make secure containers that you can PW protect? also don't they make mining ships with giant cargoholds? Why would you use a can that people can randomly take from? I honestly don't understand, is it just being really lazy?

Sorry if this has already been said.
magic preacher
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2012-08-11 11:32:54 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Wait...people still solo jetcan mine after the last patch? I figured 1.2 was CCP taking can-flipping for a long walk with a shovel. Also, soon as he takes that ore he's flagged to your entire corp/alliance and his friends can't help him outside repping which will flag them too in a belt where there's no place to dock.

The odds can't get much better in your favor.


flagged to your corp not your alliance !!!


and please make me red to the whole fleet ...that would be far more fun
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-08-11 14:09:34 UTC
magic preacher wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Wait...people still solo jetcan mine after the last patch? I figured 1.2 was CCP taking can-flipping for a long walk with a shovel. Also, soon as he takes that ore he's flagged to your entire corp/alliance and his friends can't help him outside repping which will flag them too in a belt where there's no place to dock.

The odds can't get much better in your favor.


flagged to your corp not your alliance !!!


and please make me red to the whole fleet ...that would be far more fun


No, they're flagged to the alliance, I've done it enough times to know :P

And yes, flagging to fleet would be awesome, it makes (or made) can flipping the sort of "gateway piracy" you could get noobs and normally PvE focused people into without having to require they sign over into your corp right away. On the flip side, it would help the miner if he had friends outside his corp an alliance who could do something besides scoop his wreck when he dies.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-08-11 22:25:32 UTC
Kalosine wrote:
I'll admit I am very new to Eve but...

Don't they make secure containers that you can PW protect? also don't they make mining ships with giant cargoholds? Why would you use a can that people can randomly take from? I honestly don't understand, is it just being really lazy?

Sorry if this has already been said.


jetcans can hold up to 24,000m^3 of stuff i think and it's also free and doesn't have any positional requirements like the secure containers.

With all these benefits there must be a downside and that downside is that anyone can steal from them as long as they accept the consequences
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-08-18 22:57:02 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:
CONCORD is there to protect from PVP


Wrong.

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Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#40 - 2012-08-18 23:16:36 UTC
Jadeleth wrote:
If I (player) meet you, take your cell-phone and put it in the nearest trash can, you can take it back... but if you do it in this game I can shoot you and, after fifteen minutes, if one of your friends tries to disarm me he get shooted by police... lot of sense. Ugh


Nope, in this case the player put his own mobile phone in the rubbish bin and someone else came along and took it out. Miners have been chucking away ore for years, they were just lucky as someone before mentioned that ccp changed the rules giving people the right to shoot the people who took stuff out of wrecks and jetcans.