These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

DEV RESPONCE REQUESTED: Amarr Rookie ships and cynos

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jim Era
#81 - 2012-08-10 17:02:43 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:


No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.

[.


Exactly, if you fly Amarr, you just have to fit your ship accordingly and you can cyno in the rookie ship just like any other.

Wat™
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-08-10 17:04:32 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Andski wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Yes. You are. Please let me know where you live and I will come and show you why it is a bad idea. I am certainly not opposed to force recon kills! =D

It is still a disadvantage and the change needed to fix it is also far from a significant one. 5.2 m3 of cargo space.


Feel free to shoot a blue recon. Given that rookie ships are not intended as cyno ships, you'll never see it "fixed."


Goons historically haven't been blue to 99 (we formed specifically to fight you actually). The current standings are based on convenience and will likely be reviewed once the current conflict is over. We only became blue to you because of Delve. Did you not think there was a reason for that?

No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.




So you're saying your present blue status with the Goons and associates is a marriage of convenience and you're likely to set them at red when it's no longer convenient? So I guess you've reached that time that it's no longer convenient.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#83 - 2012-08-10 17:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Jim Era wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:


No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.

[.


Exactly, if you fly Amarr, you just have to fit your ship accordingly and you can cyno in the rookie ship just like any other.



It is not "just like any other" ship. That is my point. You ONLY have to worry about it if you rolled Amarr. if you are any other race you don't have to worry about extra fittings or carrying a different ship or any of that. Only Amarr players have to worry about it. The issue is how these ships are generated. It is generated based on a choice made before a player knew the concequences. If they were seeded by NPCs at stations and the player could choose to train lvl 1 of a different racial frig, then this wouldn't be an issue. Because newbie ships are generated by that racial choice, and the only difference between the races is the rookie ship, a disadvantage to the ship is a disadvantage to the race.
Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-08-10 17:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Theron Urian
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on the Ibis. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-08-10 17:10:47 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.


You'll notice that CCP puts ships into the game with specific roles in mind. While you can use them in unintended ways, CCP is not obligated to ensure that a ship can be used in a manner that is not the within the scope of its role.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#86 - 2012-08-10 17:11:30 UTC
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#87 - 2012-08-10 17:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Andski wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.


You'll notice that CCP puts ships into the game with specific roles in mind. While you can use them in unintended ways, CCP is not obligated to ensure that a ship can be used in a manner that is not the within the scope of its role.



Again, you are talking about ship balance, which has nothing to do with the point I am making. If Rookie ships were provided off the market and seeded by NPCs I would agree with you. The reality is that they are generated by a player choice made before they have even loaded the station environment. They have no way to make an informed decision and no way to change it once made.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#88 - 2012-08-10 17:15:14 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Andski wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.


You'll notice that CCP puts ships into the game with specific roles in mind. While you can use them in unintended ways, CCP is not obligated to ensure that a ship can be used in a manner that is not the within the scope of its role.



Again, you are talking about ship balance, which has nothing to do with the point I am making. If Rookie ships were provided off the market and seeded by NPCs I would agree with you. The reality is that they are generated by a player choice made before they have even loaded the station environment. They have no way to make an informed decision.


You know what is seeded off the market?

Anything other than noobships.

T1 cargohold expanders.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-08-10 17:20:14 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


Where's the balance between projectile turrets and laser turrets when considering capacitor requirements. Balance does not necessarily have to be like for like it can be balanced in others ways.

As Andski already mentioned, CCP are redoing the ships to give specific roles to ships, of course they can be used for something else other than what they're designed for but they should be most efficient being used for what they're designed to do.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#90 - 2012-08-10 17:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Sabrina Solette wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Andski wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Yes. You are. Please let me know where you live and I will come and show you why it is a bad idea. I am certainly not opposed to force recon kills! =D

It is still a disadvantage and the change needed to fix it is also far from a significant one. 5.2 m3 of cargo space.


Feel free to shoot a blue recon. Given that rookie ships are not intended as cyno ships, you'll never see it "fixed."


Goons historically haven't been blue to 99 (we formed specifically to fight you actually). The current standings are based on convenience and will likely be reviewed once the current conflict is over. We only became blue to you because of Delve. Did you not think there was a reason for that?

No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.




So you're saying your present blue status with the Goons and associates is a marriage of convenience and you're likely to set them at red when it's no longer convenient? So I guess you've reached that time that it's no longer convenient.


This should really be in CAOD.. 0.0 politics are actually quite a bit more complicated than that. It isn't quite so cut and dried. 99% was started by Xystance, Raynaldo and I who are all Day 1 or near day one Dreddit. We all quite like Goons, however we started it as a joke and a way to give new players and carebears a taste of what life in 0.0 is like. To do that we used the Goon interdiction (which was generating quite a bit of tears) as a recruitment tactic (look up "The hero that high-sec deserves").

When we moved up with TEST the decision was made to keep Goons neutral. We did that so we could always roam up north for
"gud fights"TM and also so our members didn't end up scattered to the winds over 5 regions. We joined with TASHA and formed tribe and now are in PB on literally the opposite courner of the map from Goons. After the conflict is done, we will almost certainly reset almost all of the CFC alliances to reduce our blue list. We want fights more than we want blues and Goons and the CFC are fun to fight against. Should **** go down however, Honey Badgers and the CFC will always stick together.


Sorry for the off topic. I now return you to your normal EVE-O sperg.
Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-08-10 17:21:31 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


You are crying over literally 20 minutes of train time and one simple T1 mod, that will put you right back to where you want to be! OH NO Amarr are a half a hour behind on a noobie cyno alt!

I cant do it any more, I am done. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I hope you never breed for the sake of the world.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#92 - 2012-08-10 17:23:17 UTC
Sabrina Solette wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


Where's the balance between projectile turrets and laser turrets when considering capacitor requirements. Balance does not necessarily have to be like for like it can be balanced in others ways.

As Andski already mentioned, CCP are redoing the ships to give specific roles to ships, of course they can be used for something else other than what they're designed for but they should be most efficient being used for what they're designed to do.


As I have said more than once now. This is not about ship balance.

You are, quite literally, making up an argument, pretending that I said it and arguing against it. You are actually arguing against yourself currently.
Jim Era
#93 - 2012-08-10 17:23:27 UTC
Races should not be balanced. You should gain an advantage here, and lose something there. Different races should be different.
We aren't all the same on the inside, like everyone wants to think.

Wat™
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#94 - 2012-08-10 17:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Theron Urian wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


You are crying over literally 20 minutes of train time and one simple T1 mod, that will put you right back to where you want to be! OH NO Amarr are a half a hour behind on a noobie cyno alt!

I cant do it any more, I am done. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I hope you never breed for the sake of the world.


So.. how much training time does it take to make it so that a different newbie ship appears in my hanger when I arrive in my pod in a new station?

I am sure the person who made the argument you just shot down is an idiot. Good thing it isn't an argument that I made.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#95 - 2012-08-10 17:27:27 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
Races should not be balanced. You should gain an advantage here, and lose something there. Different races should be different.
We aren't all the same on the inside, like everyone wants to think.



Before this change they were balanced. There was no difference in races except for the location of their starting stations and the Rookie ships. It didn't used to be that way. It used to be that each race got different bonuses and if you used the wrong race for the wrong thing you were at a disadvantage. CCP changed that for good reason and I don't think we should be taking a step back in that direction.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#96 - 2012-08-10 17:27:32 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Andski wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.


You'll notice that CCP puts ships into the game with specific roles in mind. While you can use them in unintended ways, CCP is not obligated to ensure that a ship can be used in a manner that is not the within the scope of its role.



Again, you are talking about ship balance, which has nothing to do with the point I am making. If Rookie ships were provided off the market and seeded by NPCs I would agree with you. The reality is that they are generated by a player choice made before they have even loaded the station environment. They have no way to make an informed decision and no way to change it once made.


And you are just making this point now? By the same logic, everyone should pick gallante. Their racial frigate has double the drone bay of minmatar or caldari. This is an advantage in pvp, mining, and use of electronic drones. Yet, you never once seem to care or protest this fact. You're upset when amarr doesn't match, but no concern when all other choices besides gallante have a disadvantage. Why?

Of course, picking caldari is also a huge advantage. You are closer to jita, the main trade hub, before loading the station environment. Why no outcry?

Basically, you seem to have found a minor quibble with a ship change and have decided to make your epic protest for fairness, yet never once considered the other underprivledged groups. Grow up and fund something truly worth crusading for.
Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-08-10 17:29:19 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


You are crying over literally 20 minutes of train time and one simple T1 mod, that will put you right back to where you want to be! OH NO Amarr are a half a hour behind on a noobie cyno alt!

I cant do it any more, I am done. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I hope you never breed for the sake of the world.


So.. how much training time does it take to make it so that a different newbie ship appears in my hanger when I arrive in my pod in a new station?

I am sure the person who made the argument you just shot down is an idiot. Good thing it isn't an argument that I made.


Seriously I just read that and I forgot math, not just like 2+2 or Pi but like all the math I had ever known.

Reading your posts makes my brain hurt, as if your ignorance can be contracted over the internet. I believe we have a new scientific phenomenon.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-08-10 17:31:29 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?



So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.


You are crying over literally 20 minutes of train time and one simple T1 mod, that will put you right back to where you want to be! OH NO Amarr are a half a hour behind on a noobie cyno alt!

I cant do it any more, I am done. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I hope you never breed for the sake of the world.


So.. how much training time does it take to make it so that a different newbie ship appears in my hanger when I arrive in my pod in a new station?

I am sure the person who made the argument you just shot down is an idiot. Good thing it isn't an argument that I made.



So how much train time do you need to use lasers efficiently (still on cap use) against how much time it takes to train projectles (also cap use)?

Noob ships have not been designed for the purpose of which you're trying to use it. You have no complaint it's fit for purpose.
Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-08-10 17:33:44 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
Races should not be balanced. You should gain an advantage here, and lose something there. Different races should be different.
We aren't all the same on the inside, like everyone wants to think.



Before this change they were balanced. There was no difference in races except for the location of their starting stations and the Rookie ships. It didn't used to be that way. It used to be that each race got different bonuses and if you used the wrong race for the wrong thing you were at a disadvantage. CCP changed that for good reason and I don't think we should be taking a step back in that direction.



Please read the part of the quote that I put in bold. It appears that evrey thing is still...... yup exactly the same.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#100 - 2012-08-10 17:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Theron Urian wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
Races should not be balanced. You should gain an advantage here, and lose something there. Different races should be different.
We aren't all the same on the inside, like everyone wants to think.



Before this change they were balanced. There was no difference in races except for the location of their starting stations and the Rookie ships. It didn't used to be that way. It used to be that each race got different bonuses and if you used the wrong race for the wrong thing you were at a disadvantage. CCP changed that for good reason and I don't think we should be taking a step back in that direction.



Please read the part of the quote that I put in bold. It appears that evrey thing is still...... yup exactly the same.


Before the nerf, each rookie ship was pretty much exactly the same. The main use for rookie ships after the trial is for using as a cyno. Amarr now has a significant disadvantage in this usage case which can be avoided by rolling any other race while incurring no disadvantage for the non-amarr race. The only disadvantages that is incurred is if you rolled Amarr during character creation. That is before the player starts the game and before they have the information needed to make an informed decision. That violates the design principals of the game and further burdens the new player experience.

Are you actually trying to argue that there is no difference before and after the patch? You have to be seriously disconnected from reality to take that position.