These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Mining Barge "Game Balance"
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lexmana
#41 - 2012-08-10 07:06:39 UTC
Cyn Durella wrote:

The Rig slots on the T1 are ice mining and 2 shield extenders. The T2 ship as I mentioned still has the 2 cargo rigs on it.

There you have it. Cargo extenders don't affect ore hold so are essentially useless. Remove them and replace with ice mining rigs and you will see the difference.
Dave stark
#42 - 2012-08-10 07:50:51 UTC
Cyn Durella wrote:
The Mack has two harvesters and 2 Mining upgrades.

The Procurer has one harvester and 2 mining upgrades. It also has the ice rig and 2 shield extender rigs. The Mack at this time still has the Cargo rigs on it. I know if I put the ice mining rig on it will start to our mine the Procurer by seconds and the shield will increase between 20k and 30 k. (I am cheap and cringe at the thought of losing 9 Million ISK on rigs; if the Devs view this as unbalance might consider making another change I dont want to destroy them yet. I can park it technically and use my GOD-LIKE T1 barge.)

BUT it is STILL a T2 Mining barge being schooled by a half sized T1 Mining barge.


the ship with more ice bonuses mines more than ship without as many ice bonuses.

please, tell us more.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-08-10 11:40:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Mack gets 33%, so the Proc should only mine 33% faster over ONE laser than the Mack. It's not 66% faster than the Mack.

With the same fittings, that isn't enough of an increase on a SINGLE laser, for it to mine more, faster, than the mack.

If the Proc is doing 90s cylces for 2 blocks and the Mack is doing 196s for the same amount, which is more then 50% faster mind you, then they should be mining at just about an even rate.

12% from rig

33% from ship

That's less than 50%, if you don't have the equivilant skill in exhumers (lvl 5), and no rig; wich she didn't.
It shouldn't be possible to mine more ice, faster, in a proc then a mack.

She wasn't talking about strip miners, she said minging ice.
The proc should be STRIP MINING much faster, it gets a 200% bonus, which is what it would need to mine like it had 3 strips fit.

The Mack on the other hand only strip mines like it's got 2.5 strips fit, but it's meant to sit around in a safe spot for longer periods. The proc should be strip mining in more hasardous locations, so it strip mines faster; with a lower hold to fill quickly so that you're not sitting around long. I guess the idea here is that with the added space in the low and rig slots, you should be able to fit more MLU's, rigs, and have the exhumer skills to increase yeild; making up that 50% icrease in yeild that the Proc gets. This is the only thing I don't understand or agree with.

The Proc shouldn't be STRIP MINING faster than a Mack. Even is one thing, but not faster. I guess CCP feels that the amount of time running back and forth to unooad will offset the yeild rate. I personally think the 200% to strips should be knocked down to 150%.

I think there is something off with your math.
With Ice harvesters
Proc/Skiff = 66.66% cycle reduction
Ret/Mack = 33.33% Cycle reduction

Looking at it as effective harvesters
Proc/Skiff = 1/(1-0.6666) = 3.00
Ret/Mack = 2/(1-0.3333) = 3.00

Both ships have the same base number of effective harvesters.

Another way to look at it is the proc has a 1/3rd cycle while the mack has a 2/3rd cycle, thus the proc cycle is exactly half that of the mack before the 1% per level, making their output the same before per level bonuses.

To give the mack the greatest advantage we can assume lvl 5 exhumers thus raising the effective output to 3.15. The nuber of upgrades is the same on both ships so that is a wash, leaving the mack with only it's 5% lead. That being the case the rig on the procurer would have to be less that a 5% bonus to have the mack beat the procurer with the setups mentioned.


Believe me, I have very little faith in my ability to do math properly, I'm a much better artist.

But yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at, the math -even my ****** math- says that the proc doesn't mine ice faster than a Mack.

At their base they're equal and the Proc doesn't get any bonus to ice mining from barge skills, Mack does from exhumer skills, and the Mack can actually fit more harvester upgrades than the Proc can (can't it?).

No way does a tank barge mine more ice faster than any exhumer.
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-08-10 11:45:59 UTC
I have 20k EHP on my Retriever; I think you're fitting your Mack wrong...

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Bullz3y3
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-08-10 12:25:09 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Cyn Durella wrote:
The T2 Mack mines 2 units of ice in 196 seconds. The T1 Procurer mines 2 units of ice (two cycles) in 180 seconds.
Why can a T1 single harvester ship out mine a T2 dual harvester ship. (and sport more than 2x the amount of shields)

That is my point. I am perfectly happy to switch to my T1 harvester that will be nearly impossible to gank in high sec and is cheap as heck to buy; BUT IS IT GAME BALANCE? Why would anyone buy the Mackinaw now?


And what is allowing you to reduce your cycle time?

And how many harvesters are you comparing? The proc only has the slots to fit one, the Mack can fit two.
Are you saying that a single harvester on a Proc outmines 2 on a Mack?


That's exactly what she is saying.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-08-10 12:32:55 UTC
Cyn Durella wrote:
BUT REMEMBER we are still comparing a Medium sized T2 ship to a Small T1 ship. The T2 versions should smoke the T1's.
Should a T1 frigate own a T2 cruiser with similar fitted items?


Compare the Procurer to the Skiff, not the Mackinaw. You get a godly ore hold with the mid tiers that's what they're for. Low tier has the tank. Top tier yield.

Yield is decent on all of them now though.

forums.  serious business.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#47 - 2012-08-10 12:58:50 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Believe me, I have very little faith in my ability to do math properly, I'm a much better artist.

But yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at, the math -even my ****** math- says that the proc doesn't mine ice faster than a Mack.

At their base they're equal and the Proc doesn't get any bonus to ice mining from barge skills, Mack does from exhumer skills, and the Mack can actually fit more harvester upgrades than the Proc can (can't it?).

No way does a tank barge mine more ice faster than any exhumer.





Proc has an Ice Mining Rig.
Mack in this example does not.

Therefore, the Proc should mine more.

Exhumers are tougher than Barges, and have more drone room but in the case of the Mack, have only a massive 1%*level bonus to Ice Duration.
So.... Rig is -12% duration.
At max Mack is -5% duration.

Therefore, the Proc should outmine the Mack in this example. The Op already answered their own question when they said the Proc had an IMR, while the Mack did not. Put the same rigs on both ships, and the Mack is better. Not by much yield, a T1 Barge can get close to the yeild, but will not have the same kind of tank as the T2, while the extra drones provide far better defense support also.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-08-10 13:10:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Believe me, I have very little faith in my ability to do math properly, I'm a much better artist.

But yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at, the math -even my ****** math- says that the proc doesn't mine ice faster than a Mack.

At their base they're equal and the Proc doesn't get any bonus to ice mining from barge skills, Mack does from exhumer skills, and the Mack can actually fit more harvester upgrades than the Proc can (can't it?).

No way does a tank barge mine more ice faster than any exhumer.





Proc has an Ice Mining Rig.
Mack in this example does not.

Therefore, the Proc should mine more.

Exhumers are tougher than Barges, and have more drone room but in the case of the Mack, have only a massive 1%*level bonus to Ice Duration.
So.... Rig is -12% duration.
At max Mack is -5% duration.

Therefore, the Proc should outmine the Mack in this example. The Op already answered their own question when they said the Proc had an IMR, while the Mack did not. Put the same rigs on both ships, and the Mack is better. Not by much yield, a T1 Barge can get close to the yeild, but will not have the same kind of tank as the T2, while the extra drones provide far better defense support also.

That's what I've been trying to get across for 3 pages now.

The OP fit one ship properly and another she didn't, then rushed to the forums to yell imbalance, then a bunch of lemmings followed her to spurge the same nonsense without looking at the numbers and point of each ship.

Even the left side of my brain, wich is pretty ****** at math and spends most of its time making pretty pictures could figure out the OP didn't know what she was talking about.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#49 - 2012-08-10 13:44:41 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


There are no Tiers. It's just exhumer or barge. It's not T1 or T2 anymore.


Partially correct.

Barge = T(ech) 1
Exhumer = T(ech) 2


One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-08-10 16:41:39 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Believe me, I have very little faith in my ability to do math properly, I'm a much better artist.

But yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at, the math -even my ****** math- says that the proc doesn't mine ice faster than a Mack.

At their base they're equal and the Proc doesn't get any bonus to ice mining from barge skills, Mack does from exhumer skills, and the Mack can actually fit more harvester upgrades than the Proc can (can't it?).

No way does a tank barge mine more ice faster than any exhumer.

Right, it doesn't. But the difference is small. It's small enough that it can be overcome with 1 rig. And if I understood the op correctly, she was unwilling to fit that rig as it further dwindles her already less than significant EHP.

The procurer of the other hand has an excellent natural tank that allows one to free up rig slots from tank and use them to enhance the ship performance. Since a single rig was enough to more than cover the gap you have a Tech 1 Barge outmining a Tech 2 Exhumer while maintaining twice the tank.

She thinks that is unbalanced. I don't mine enough to know or to assign any tangible value to the macks hold to say if that utility makes it a better ship.
Previous page123