Wormholes

I'd like to swap T3 subs around via a drydock or something and have clone access.

But I don't want station games, for that priviledge.

The first half of your post is about the conveniences that docking would add to w-space. In the second half you say that w-space is about making people work hard to survive there.

You are right that POSes are something we suffer but an inadvertent balance has come with them that it's important not to lose.

1. The lack of station services play a role in w-space by giving us a reason to make runs to k-space either as individuals or with convoys of haulers. This window of vulnerability is an important opportunity for predators living down the pipe. Every service you add to w-space reduces the reasons to go, and so reduces the chance of those encounters.

2. Building up a database of POS locations and owners is an important intel activity and part of how a well organised corp masters w-space. It's important to keep that valuable and part of that is knowing which POSes are on and offline. Don't need a force field for this, do need something.

3. "Ship on scan…it's in a POS…piloted." D-scan is our local. In w-space, you are cloaked, you are logged out, or you are on d-scan. The ability to gather this intel is a critical part of hunting in w-space. Having this small bit of intel is what allows hunters to decide to sit and watch and wait and see if the residents do anything. If a populated new POS is indistinguishable from an empty new POS, this will also be a huge loss.

4. One POS per moon gives corps some chance to exert special control in a place where sovereignty doesn't exist. If we are allowed to put POSes anywhere in space, this will mean an enormous change in w-space life. I have no idea how to predict the consequences of it.

5. For defenders, being able to d-scan from a safe position is also a valuable form of intel. Docked characters can't scan. This is a huge change.

There are a lot of things we suffer through with POSes that are bad UI, or weird systems hacked together that could use some improvement. But there are other inconveniences that are gameplay elements. It's critical that CCP and you be at least conscious of those things and the changes you are bringing with docking anywhere on any grid POSes.

One of the most frustrating things about the CSM minutes is we hear a lot of talk about features and ideas without hearing the why. What are the problems that these new features are trying to solve? Maybe, like the force field thing you guys talked about this stuff and it all got NDA'd, but from the outside, it's hard to understand whether a change is good or bad without knowing what it's trying to do and what's been taken into account in thinking about it.

When I joined KILL, they told us, "Living in w-space is like a camping expedition." Every change that makes living in w-space more like living in k-space is a change that weakens the character of w-space. This needs to be considered and planned for.

TL;DR sometimes limitations and inconveniences are a positive design element

What do w-space dwellers need? Until now, many of us have been approaching this from a single point of view: our own. Overwhelmingly, that point of view expressed in the forums has been PVP-oriented. But the ideas under discussion would appear to provide benefits primarily for those averse to combat encounters. Think about it:

- Wormhole stabilizers would guarantee a route out of deep W-space, instead of potentially going days bumping into dead-end routes filled with hostiles who want to shoot you.

- With permanent W-space connections, the NAPfest found in Nullsec can now finally make its way into W-space as you make connections between your allies permanent. If someone DOES try to invade, not only can you field all of your capital ships in defense, but so can your allies. And they can support you at a moment's notice, instead of spending hours to roll their statics to find you or traveling from one side of k-space to the other to reach you.

Your attackers can only field whatever they can fit through the random hole they found into your artificial constellation. Forget about any more embarrassing Clarion Call encounters happening ever again. The blob makes its way into w-space.

- Removing towers and force-fields and changing to a docking mechanic means you can hide your online forces, as well as play docking games to frustrate your aggressor, who wants to shoot you.

- The availability of station services means there is less of a need to visit K-space, and less reason to traverse potentially hostile connecting systems, full of people who want to shoot you.

- Multiple towers in one location, combined with stabilized constellations, means no one will ever be able to drive the new w-space coalitions out. If your sticks-of-death can't sway your attackers, the blob will. Fewer people will bother trying to shoot you.


Now I see why some are in favour of the ideas and why some are not. Most of the people I see posting in opposition to these ideas are active PvP-oriented corps. They are out hunting for targets, searching for the weak, the unprepared, and even other hunters. They (we) want to shoot you. That PVP perspective seems to be what EVE is supposed to be about.

Thinking about Forcefields, what do you think about its removal?

Im a bit half and half about the situation. The radius of forcefields around poses makes a lot of weapon systems and ships unable to hit the tower.

But at the same time it provides a niche for certain weapon systems like torpedoes.

People might not like to fight against the UI but what they love to do is fight against each other. You have multiple pages of explanations and discussions on how the changes proposed in CSM minutes will reduce the potential for fun fights. Might I recommend that you focus on that? Tell us how new POSes and how your ideas will bring us more pew instead of little gimmicks like Contracts and Markets.

THIS. 99% of the people in wormhole space don't give a rats rectum about docking, markets, etc... We care about changing T3 subs, making pos security better and having a place for us to store our crap. Forcefields don't need to be gone for that to happen. Docking doesn't need to take place for that to happen. It honestly seems like CCP wants to reinvent the wheel, when it isn't really needed.

The whole K.I.S.S attitude should apply here (Keep It Simple Stupid) Wormhole space is one of the few places in Eve that isn't butchered to all hell. Let's keep it that way.

Contracts and market make a lot more sense for deep c4-6 holes than for c1-3 or even C4-6 with c1-3 statics. It's also not needed for the small tight corp but for large corp or alliance wormholes. It's not uncommon for miners to need ore hauled to HS or ships/ammo/fuel to be imported. This would make it easier for your alliance haulers, fuel vendor, arms merchants and drug dealers to provide services to the corp/alliance.

Everyone is saying the same thing over and over, and I'm sorry to say Two Step i don't think you have done a very good job of addressing the issues or the people purposing them.

Honestly i hate to say it but your personal opinions of what will be lost or gained about loosing FF from W-Space an't what should be discussed, all i care about is that you openly recognize our concerns and do what you where elected to do by the community and raise them to CCP. And for CCP to recognize our concerns and address them accordingly explain your reasons or restrictions.

I understand that the WH community isn't the only people affected by this change or anywhere even close to the biggest affected community. But it will affect us the most of all the other EVE players, the ability to run operate and use a pos as a tool to conduct operations and a tool to gather intel on others operations is of paramount importance. As may others have said information about your potential victims / stalkers should be available for the people that have the commitment to seek it. Transparency!!

And no one as far as i can see in the thread has spoken out against the off hand comment that cloaking stations may be possible but id like to just say no no no no.

I feel this thread is just going to get more railroaded, id love to speak to you and other interested CSM members in an open discussion but i understand probably not going to be a realistic possibility. But hey its a 2013 project so in CCP time we have another 3 years to discuss the changes and get them right.

Nope. You can sit inside a station and you can't get your stuff destroyed if you don't undock. Don't undock to defend your pos, you loose stuff. *THAT* is your difference. They change that, then they really change the meaning of W-Space

Since POS's are vital to w-space dwellers, they should be designed around w-space and not null sec.

I would rather have force fields that docking games.