Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The issue:
ECM in comparison with other forms of electronic warfare, is overpowered, due to the fact that there is no specific counter that one can easily utilize to neutralize the effects of the electronic warfare, and the devices made to counter it (ECCM and passive ECCM) are not strong enough counters to alleviate the damage ECM causes, or that it is much too specific of a module to put on one’s ship when other useful combat oriented modules could be placed instead. Especially on shield tanked ships, sparing a slot for an active ECCM is crippling. This tradeoff is not really beneficial when there is only a potential for an enemy to bring ECM, however, not bringing this module leaves a ship completely vulnerable to ECM. Even ships that are unbonused to ECM can become a pain with ECM modules fit. However, fixing this issue is difficult because fixing a tracking penalty or some form of change to ECM would just not make any sense physically. As a result, there are two potential methods to fix up ECM:

a) Nerf ECM modules, making them less useful in general.
Advantages: Fixes balance across the board
Disadvantages: Makes ECM ships less desirable to fly, and caldari electronic warfare is solely based on ECM modules, whereas other races have multiple forms of warfare (warp disruption/dampening for gallente, energy warfare/tracking disruption for amarr, etc.). Debuffing ECM modules themselves will make some caldari ships useless completely and thus unbalance the caldari fleet in general. This causes option a to be unfair for caldari players.

b) Make ECCM much more useful
Advantages: Will make ECM counterable, however leaves ECM still a reasonable form of warfare in that it is not useless.
Disadvantages: Without ECCM, ECM still will be very powerful. However, after buffing ECCM modules, it should make ECCM modules extremely useful and not just a “nice to have” module, instead one of the “really important to consider” modules. Sort of like the versatility of a damage control module. This will not unbalance races, but provide a good counter to ECM if a pilot expects ECM on the field.

It is fairly clear that option b) models a more fair change in order to balance ECM. How would it be implemented?

Partial immunity

An active ECCM module currently provides around a 100% bonus to sensor strength of the ship using it. As this change will cause ECM to be much easier to counter, this basic bonus will be reduced to 40% instead.

An ECCM module should essentially nullify weak ECM(ECM drones, unmatching racial ECM), and makes powerful ECM (ECM from bonused ships/matching targeted racial ECM modules) more easy to deal with.

How would this work?
-ECM Drones and nonmatching targeted ECM do not affect a ship with an active ECCM module.

-Targeted ECM Jams as normally, with the exception of the Originating ship jamming the target. This means the target cannot shoot anyone except the ship that is jamming them while jammed. Overhead for this change would be a method of acknowledging who is jamming oneself easily so that one can target and engage the jammer.

What about multiple jammers?
The efficiency of this ability to target those who are jamming you decreases with each person jamming you. The first jammer you will have 100% chance of being able to target them back. The second, 75%, the third, 50%, and so on. This percentage decrease can be modified if found to be too lenient. For percentages that are not 100%, the chance of being able to target them is decided when their jam succeeds on you. That way, for multiple jammers, you have multiple chances to be able to target secondary jammers as well during a fight.

What about having multiple ECCM modules?
The bonus of each ECCM stacks (with penalties if needed). 40% strength bonus for each module. As well, the potential to target back jammers doubles for each module fit. With two ECCM, you can use both modules to completely target back 2 jammers. Meaning the first is 100% chance, the second being 100% chance, third 75% chance, 50%, etc.

How can this be balanced for all shiptypes?
Make identical ECCM modules in a medium slot and low slot version. This is needed because it is not fair if only armor ships have the potential to fend off ECM easily. Passive ECCM may not be needed anymore, due to the low slot ECCM being much more useful, however, perhaps passive ECCM could provide a negligible CPU requirement (1 CPU, 1PG), so ships could fit it with a very tight fitting if they wanted and didn’t have room for active ECCM.

Remote ECCM
Effectively, remote ECCM is supposed to be even more powerful than local ECCM. What would make remote ECCM useful?
-80% boost to sensor strength
-Make the targeted ship able to target any ship that is jamming it.
-Provide the same bonuses as the active local ECCM module.

ecm is the counter to ecm? fly with ecm pilots!!!! most ecm ships are dead in 1 shot with the exception of the scorpion! fly with a fc that knows whats up and you wont have a problem with most ecm engagements.

I guess you'll now show us figures to back up this claim.

Wow, you mean we have to make choices when we fit and there's not a fits all set up?

ECM or Electronic counter measure is a think to break the target lock.

Go back to the old ECM formula of str v sig str and make ecm racial only (no multi spec)

So simply make it break the lock on the target ship that has ecm not the ability to lock 'any ' target.

EG. I'm in a gang of three ships....I'm the biggest damage dealer and fit an anti minnie ecm jammer. We come across a mixed gang of 4 ships (2 minnie 2 other) and they all lock me up as i'm the biggest threat. I turn on my ecm and start attacking. Now the two minnie ships in the gang lose their lock on me but the other don't. If the ships were targeting my gang mates my ecm would have no effect whatso ever.

ECM should be a defensive mechanism not and offensive one. Damps/TD's are a combo, TP is offensive.

Balance it out.

Changing a ships velocity does not necessarily negate its ability to fight back against against the ship that is webbing it.

If you are that worried about the term debuff, I can replace it :)

This change consists of doing option a) which was covered in the initial post. The aim with fixing ECM is to make it so that ECM ships are great still but are possible to counter in a convincing manner. Weakening jams successively is an unfair change in comparison with other EWAR types. As well, the method of tracking the decrease in jam strength would be difficult to keep track of based on the fact that one could switch targets with a single module, or reactivate it.

This is a reasonable idea, but I would still think that making the jammer more vulnerable while not completely taking away the full effect of ECM is a more fair setup, and a more interesting one tactically at that. The other issue with this is that it still causes unfair problems to those who prep for ECM on a small scale level, since sensor strength is unaffected.

Not at all, the other ewars already have their stacking penalties. If the jam strength is penalised after a successful jam that's still 30 seconds a ship was taken out of action- that's a heck of a long time to be unable to lock anything, and even if the penalty is 50% each there's a very good chance of doubling that time.

That's a classical case of flawed logic.

The thing is, eccm already doubles sensor strengh and by boosting it even further you're effectively splitting the whole ship lineup into two groups - ones without eccm and thus defensiveless and those with (OP) eccm and thus well protected. It would be a gamble of 0 and 1, a simple on/off mechanics.

Apparently it's a very primitive way of doing things and deserves no place in such a complex universe as EVE Online.

Also, there are already way too many must-have modules in small-scale (the one most vulnerable to ecm) PvP and you simply can not introduce yet another one and consider things done.

Those that whine about how ECM is OP have clearly never spent much time in ECM boats. Thinnest tank, first primaried.

I'll give you a hint though. this works especially well in low. If you're always getting hit by that falcon that decloaks at 70 or so, and jamms you during the fight, start bring an anti-ecm ship.

Its not hard.

here's an example. took 5 minutes

[Tempest, anti-ecm]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
ECCM - Ladar II
ECCM - Ladar II
ECCM - Ladar II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

you know what that is? thats a dead falcon.

not good enough? get creative. ecm isn't over powered. people just don't try to counter it.

although i do think that ecm drones should be looked at.