Crime & Punishment

I've recently observed a can flipping - piracy action, I haven't lost anything since I haven't taken part in it but I've to make some observation and give some suggestions...

first of all let me state clearly that I think that with this flagging system ccp is allowing pvp in high security areas, which are supposed to be places for players who don't like PVP. Therefore, I hope this is a mistake made by some game designers and not the right way to play.
(it would really be a shame, CCP aiding piracy and ruining the game to some players for what? a few more ships blowned?)

first problem
a fleet is made up:
A, member of corporation "Example", is giving mining bonuses and hauling collected ores to a safe place.
B, also member of corporation "Example", is guarding for rats and thieves.
C, member of corporation "not Example, another one", is mining and putting extracted ores into jet-cans.

and there's another player:
D, the canflipper.

well, if D does can flipping on a jet-can made by C, only C and the members of "not Example, another one" corporation can retaliate by opening fire on D.
A and B can only watch their can disappear and should ignore the new opened yellow one with some ore inside that's magically not their own.

so, if ownership spreads over the fleet why don't rights to defend the owned do the same thing?

fast answer: to aid pirates that want to do PVP and are not on top of PVP areas (and screwing the game to the others that were there to avoid PVPers) - please tell me that's not the correct answer!

possible solutions:
1 - expand the right to defend containers also to fleet members or at least fleet members in the same grid of the container.
2 - mark the containers in white only for the players who really own them (in this case only for player C), this will crush intercorporation fleets but doing nothing isn't better.

second problem
if C manages to kill D and retrieve his stuff (using the same characters of the above example) it shouldn't be considered thievery; member of D's corporation shouldn't be allowed to shoot at C.
in the case I've seen, B was trying to defend C and he also got "CONCORDED", as to say that, in the game, police not only ignore thievery but also protect thieves!

possible solution:
after the theft has been committed, mark every container the thief has used (put in / take out) during the last fifteen minutes as "contested" between him and the victims.

if he's a regular thief he'll just pick up what he can hold and run away; if he flips cans it's obvious he's looking for dogfights (again, in the WRONG place).

While searching on-line I've also found some hints on "how to CONCORD your targets"... you know that it shouldn't even be possible, don't you? CONCORD is there to protect from PVP and someone is using it to do PVP? Oh come on!



Thank you for reading.

Hi-Sec is 'safer', not 'guaranteed safe'. The Jet-can is a garbage can and, by default, free for the taking if you are willing to
a) defend your newly acquired material and
b) live with the temporary branding of being a sneaky thief.

The inverse, only use a jetcan if
a) you accept the risk of doing so and
b) can defend your garbage can from nasty, nasty thieves and hooligans.



Possibly. But the can rightfully belongs to one corp, not the others. He's mildly willing to share, but he's throwing out a corp-owned asset. His corp retaliates, the fleet has no ownership if they are from another corp, they are simply being given a gift without the risk of flagging as a criminal by fleeting up.



Your stuff is now my stuff. You want it back? Fantastic, you get to live with the same consequences I do. You killed me once, great. That can's badge of ownership is still 'contested', but it was last in my hold/possession/can. I'm sure there's a coding issue here, but in truth, we are all vigilantes in this case. Possession truly is 9/10ths of the law, you want it, be prepared to defend it.



There is no 'wrong' place to PVP. There's simply a 'wrong way' to pick fights. If you can't win, don't poke a dog in the face. You failed to defend your goody-bag that you released, unsecured, into space for the scavengers to pick at.

Or you can use SECURE containers for SECURE mining

where did you get the idea that high sec is for players who don't like pvp?

Lot of answers, had to make 3 posts, forgive me



Fine, so let this people find a way to do what it please to them... want to kill me? consider you'll lose a ship then.
Why help the ones who are too scared to get blowned with dumb engagement rules / nonsense CONCORD reactions?



That's why we move in fleet, it's well known we aren't safe alone so we stand toghether to be safer at least and here comes a game mechanics that interposes itself between what's "multiplayer" and what's "okay blow me up! because the other can just watch me... oh! bring pop corns, there are awesome animations for ship explosions!"



If he played it he wasn't paying enough attention, in WoW they hold your hand and give you a cookie, just one no more and they say "come back tomorrowv/next week for more", you want an Oreo and it's ALWAYS a damned dietetic one



I make my days with 9gag, if eve is "the greatest" and I'm a "kiddie" I'll leave it ASAP waiting for *who knows*... a DUNE MMORPG maybe? just the kiddie kidding.



Thanks, totally missed it, now I've something to read for the evening

We've told friends we can not mine anymore with no-corp mates, not the end of my life a couple ships blowned... just pointing out bad working rules.

By the way they (not corp friends) have lost a piece of game entertainment and this mean "failure" for a game designer.

... before someone says "you can't lose": if I play chess and I lose, first I've played and there's been a game, then I may learn something and improve myself... if I lose because the other player burns my king with a lighter after two minutes...



Extra effort? Can flip, warp out, wait them taking back their stuff and you've a fight with your corp and the CONCORD against a lonely miner... wow, that was surely an extra effort.
If they're there to punish they should warp in and blow me up as soon as I shoot the thief, but this would be even more weird; if I'm allowed to open fire, kill him, loot his wreck... why I've not rights to "steal" back my stuff from his jetcan?



Where do you go if you're not for "pew-pew" and more for mine and craft with friends? (no, MINECRAFT is not the correct answer)
And if you like to PVP won't you move to a less security space?
There may be piracy actions even in high-sec (see Jita), but they should all been prosecuted by CONCORD, not ignored or done by them for others.



It does but the player had checked the "do not repeat" box... someone has been pirating in the past

Again you saying there's no safe place... I don't want a spot to hide and pray, I blame can flip rules since they allow unfair fights and even a way to use CONCORD for piracy acts.

Have I asked to rush CONCORD against thieves? No, I just want fair ways to counter can flippers...

I'm really happy to "be touched in PVP" when I'm playing with friends, it sucks if I'm with them but only one is allowed to fight...

Isn't it clear?

You're starting off on a faulty assumption.


You mistake "permission to access" with "ownership". Your fleet can open your cans without getting aggression.


I'll agree with this. Any time there is legal aggression, the victor should get access to the wreck. As it stands, a neutral logi's wreck can give that character's entire corp shooting rights on you, even if the neutral logi was destroyed while aiding someone in a fight against you.


CONCORD has strict rules on who can and cannot fight. Legally, D had not committed a crime against B, so B committed a criminal act in firing on him...and ignored a concord warning to do so.



If you don't want to fight...don't. It's completely your choice, he's simply giving you the option.

"While searching on-line I've also found some hints on "how to CONCORD your targets"... you know that it shouldn't even be possible, don't you? CONCORD is there to protect from PVP and someone is using it to do PVP? Oh come on!"

I'm pretty sure that would be an exploit if they can get you concorded WITHOUT YOU COMMITTING A CRIMINAL ACT. I have a few times tricked people into doing just that, but it's their own stupidity that kills them, not a broken game mechanic.

Quite funny indeed...



Is exactly how it works for... wait for it... the can flipper... when you take back your stuff

there's a far more fast way to counter can flipping, don't opening fire on the can flipper, let them get bored and warp away then use an alt to reflip the can and collect it as never happened.

You may have sympathy for my ugly face (I hate the character customization of this game, for me if it's not old and bold it looks crappy), but one day you will look back and wonder "Do I really understand what I read?", well I'm here to tell you.

asdrasticator! rablado fufflous!

1. Sure I do, since it's already for the whole corporation that owns a container I don't see why shouldn't expand to a fleet.
2. I'm not a greedy miner, not willing to force other ppl to join my corporation to mine with them AND being able to defend our mined ores.
3. I'm willing to take small hit to my profit and already have done it, our minig fleet has 4 orcas (when everyone's online) but sometimes is just boring to follow the mining ship and a tractor beam and jetcans speeds this up.

There's often "a better way", you've just to accept that sometimes there's also "a better way" to script in-game mechanics.

Is this your opinion? If so, that's nice, but it's not CCP's.

Keep lamenting the mechanics, curse others as the source of all your hardships, and ignore the simple fact that you were too lazy and/or ignorant to mine in a secure manner or defend that which you claim is yours.

Keep this up, see how far you get. It's obviously working for you.



They exist. Have the combat pilot drop the initial can so that he gains the aggro in the event of a can flip. Mine into a GSC. Join a corporation with Orca support or sufficient PvP capability to defend against can flippers.

But that would take effort and it's easier to blame others for your shortcomings, eh?



False. EVE is EVE because it's gritty, complex, and unsafe. The day CCP tailors its games for all audiences is the day EVE loses its luster for those of us who value consequences in our decision-making. Either your friends will embrace EVE or they'll leave. That CCP has created an environment where players expecting coddling are gradually weeded out is an outstanding success. That environment will attract the 'right' players, generating revenue from the audience for which it is intended.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.