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Thanks to Hans and Elise - Fw csm minutes
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#21 - 2012-08-03 16:39:51 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I found it very dated. These are minutes on a two month old conversation. There are alot of ideas tossed around with very little consensus.



I agree. This was right after inferno was released. But with that in mind I think hans, and elise did a good job keeping ccp focused on making fw more of a pvp enterprise.

They both thankfully shot down the idea of abandoning the ship restrictions. Elise started out strongly against cynos but seemed reasonable about it later, when he understood the intent.

Hans did a good job pressing ccp to consider things from the amarr's perspective.

I think they did a good job for the players. But yeah, we know allot more now and some of the issues have changed.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-08-03 17:42:31 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Wenron wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
The Eszur/Hofjaldgund chokepoint to metropolis is camped so much by instalocking thrashers and tornados it's not even funny.
Adding more ways between Bleak Lands and Metropolis would be a very good thing.


Completely true that the gate is camped.

In theory, it is a neutral aspect of the map since either faction could gain control of either side of the chokepoint. It just so happens that Minmatar control both sides now.



My problem with it, is that I think gate camping is pretty much the lowest form of pvp. So I am not in favor of anyone camping it.



I don't entirely disagree. But it is what it is and either side can do it if they feel it is of strategic benefit. I was just addressing whether or not it imbalances the warzone. I am of the opinion that it doesn't since the systems can be flipped.

Also, with extreme time limitations it is sometimes nice to park at a gate and let fights come to you. Willingly or not. Lastly, with the prevalence of gunless plexers a gate camp becomes the best chance to defend a system.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#23 - 2012-08-03 17:51:31 UTC
You can set up a jump clone and some ships in back end systems bordering Metropolis. It's a bit harder logistics but that is what hauler alts are for.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-08-03 19:18:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Cearain wrote:

2) "CCP Ytterbium explained that this is by design, LP wasn’t paid for defensive plexing because they don’t want to encourage farming of LP’s in your own space, where you could sit and just let the attackers come at you while you profit.
CCP Ytterbium: “If you find yourself winning too much, this is the consequence for it.”"

Yes that....oooooor you think farther than 1cm ahead and enable reward for defensive plexing IF the system is actually vulnerable. So that there is at least some incentive to protect the system against 10 hours of overplexing into negative contest value.


You should protect your system by fighting the offensive plexers before they capture enough plexes. Not by waiting until they leave system and orbitting a button with friendly npcs when no wts are in local. There should be no reward for cowardice it should be punished. And the current system properly punishes it.

Ok then lets remove reinforcement timers on posses, ihubs and the like. You should anticipate enemy movement and kill them before they can take those down.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#25 - 2012-08-03 19:49:25 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Cearain wrote:

2) "CCP Ytterbium explained that this is by design, LP wasn’t paid for defensive plexing because they don’t want to encourage farming of LP’s in your own space, where you could sit and just let the attackers come at you while you profit.
CCP Ytterbium: “If you find yourself winning too much, this is the consequence for it.”"

Yes that....oooooor you think farther than 1cm ahead and enable reward for defensive plexing IF the system is actually vulnerable. So that there is at least some incentive to protect the system against 10 hours of overplexing into negative contest value.


You should protect your system by fighting the offensive plexers before they capture enough plexes. Not by waiting until they leave system and orbitting a button with friendly npcs when no wts are in local. There should be no reward for cowardice it should be punished. And the current system properly punishes it.

Ok then lets remove reinforcement timers on posses, ihubs and the like. You should anticipate enemy movement and kill them before they can take those down.



I don't think null sec needs to be like faction war any more than faction war needs to be like null sec.

I do think militias should be notified as soon as complexes are attacked though.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#26 - 2012-08-03 21:02:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I do think militias should be notified as soon as complexes are attacked though.



What do you want to know? in minmatar space all plexes are attacked all the time, so you really want attention spamm about those?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#27 - 2012-08-03 21:47:37 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Cearain wrote:


I do think militias should be notified as soon as complexes are attacked though.



What do you want to know? in minmatar space all plexes are attacked all the time, so you really want attention spamm about those?



Actually they are not. I can easilly roam 10-20 jumps and not find anyone running a plex. And it doesnt matter whether I am circling around kourm or going in a straighter line through metro. If I do find someone they are often not in a plex I can fight in. An alert system that told us where the plex size and the general ship type would make this much more of a pvp focus.

Farmers could run but they could no longer hide. That would make all the difference.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-08-03 23:43:49 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Cearain wrote:


I do think militias should be notified as soon as complexes are attacked though.



What do you want to know? in minmatar space all plexes are attacked all the time, so you really want attention spamm about those?



Actually they are not. I can easilly roam 10-20 jumps and not find anyone running a plex. And it doesnt matter whether I am circling around kourm or going in a straighter line through metro. If I do find someone they are often not in a plex I can fight in. An alert system that told us where the plex size and the general ship type would make this much more of a pvp focus.

Farmers could run but they could no longer hide. That would make all the difference.

Wait, are you telling me youre having problems finding amarr farms in minmatar owned systems _right now_? If you mean earlier then yes because there were no amarr. If you mean minmatar farmers then thats because youre looking for minmatar farmers in minmatar systems?
To come back to the original argument: minors take 10minutes to farm. Even if you see the mail immediately that is not enough time to go 3jumps to defend it. There is just no way to prevent systems from becoming vulnerable, since its youre fighting against a guerilla-style enemy. You can kill 100, frigates are worthless, they will come back when you sleep.
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#29 - 2012-08-03 23:52:54 UTC
Interesting notes, if a touch dated (not the fault of the CSM, of course, just the nature of the beast). I'm just encouraged that FW is finally getting some attention and being changed. I also agree with CCP Soundwave that for the most part, most of the changes so far have been positive. I know that I am having a lot of fun these days, getting good fights. If you just read the forums, sometimes it seems like everything is OMGBROKEN, but really, there is some good gameplay to be had in FW these days. I hope it continues!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#30 - 2012-08-04 01:57:41 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Actually they are not. I can easilly roam 10-20 jumps and not find anyone running a plex. And it doesnt matter whether I am circling around kourm or going in a straighter line through metro. If I do find someone they are often not in a plex I can fight in. An alert system that told us where the plex size and the general ship type would make this much more of a pvp focus.

Farmers could run but they could no longer hide. That would make all the difference.

Wait, are you telling me youre having problems finding amarr farms in minmatar owned systems _right now_? If you mean earlier then yes because there were no amarr. If you mean minmatar farmers then thats because youre looking for minmatar farmers in minmatar systems?



Ok yeah I am in amarr I thought bad messenger knew that. I do see amarr farmers. But I don't kill them. But the thing is if I were minmatar and I tried to kill them they would warp away and run a system next door. Without a notification system I would have to follow them around etc. But with a notification system I could chase them out and chase others out while they get a new plex. Bottom line is that until I am blown up or decide to log off no one would be completing plexes near me without a fight or unless they bring allot of friends.

good point though. I thought he meant minmatar but in thinking about it now its clear he wouln't have meant that.




Karah Serrigan wrote:

To come back to the original argument: minors take 10minutes to farm. Even if you see the mail immediately that is not enough time to go 3jumps to defend it. .


It doesn't take 10 minutes to go 3 jumps. If i an others kept kicking them out (especially combined with a countdown timer) they would realize that if they actually want to capture a plex they need to fight.

Karah Serrigan wrote:
[
There is just no way to prevent systems from becoming vulnerable, since its youre fighting against a guerilla-style enemy. You can kill 100, frigates are worthless, they will come back when you sleep.


When i sleep others are awake. That is the nature of this game. All faction need to rely on all the different timezones. I am totally ok with that. I just want to have fun while I am logged in. For me that means lots of easy access to pvp.

Really the more I think about this the more I am convinced notifications as soon as plex is entered will make faction war awesome.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#31 - 2012-08-06 00:28:50 UTC
I agree you shouldn't get LP defensive plexing....in non-vulnerable systems. But so, too, the foe shouldn't get LP's farming plexes in vulnerable systems. Flip it, or shuck off.

This is the issue atm with the capture mechanics as I see it; there's no incentive to actually flip a system (as you get more LP's just farming offensive plexes in vulnerable systems, aka flogging a dead horse), and there's no incentive to defensive plex a vulnerable system. Take Klogori; as a Minmatard I go there to fight, not orbit a button for 10-30 minutes for no reward.

I also find it peculiar that you can cap a major in a frigate. Maybe I'm just weird, but I would think a solo frig should get pwned by the rats in majors, but in reality you can gain a crapton of LP's for no risk whatsoever. If someone turns up, they're at 70-120km and you can align out before they even lock you.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#32 - 2012-08-06 14:28:15 UTC
"Off grid boost suck" - That's all I needed to hear to know that Yttr "gets it".

And I have always held this view (read: "have always been bitter"), even before the triple boosted solo and small gang players started visiting our system 23/7. Big smile
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2012-08-09 17:06:06 UTC
Wenron wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Wenron wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
The Eszur/Hofjaldgund chokepoint to metropolis is camped so much by instalocking thrashers and tornados it's not even funny.
Adding more ways between Bleak Lands and Metropolis would be a very good thing.


Completely true that the gate is camped.

In theory, it is a neutral aspect of the map since either faction could gain control of either side of the chokepoint. It just so happens that Minmatar control both sides now.



My problem with it, is that I think gate camping is pretty much the lowest form of pvp. So I am not in favor of anyone camping it.



I don't entirely disagree. But it is what it is and either side can do it if they feel it is of strategic benefit. I was just addressing whether or not it imbalances the warzone. I am of the opinion that it doesn't since the systems can be flipped.

...


I don't think its imbalanced thats not the problem with it. It just promotes bad pvp.

Even when everyone could dock anywhere it was always minmatar camping the gate. It might be a cultrural difference between the 2 militias I don't know. Big smile


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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