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[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#21 - 2012-08-09 15:20:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)


Highslot painter go go go.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#22 - 2012-08-09 15:22:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)



So you're saying Target Painters are gonna be Doomsday devices for frigates.

I like it!

Pirate

Where I am.
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-08-09 15:24:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


CRUCIFIER:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)



This looks like a very fun ship to fly, add the TD effect to missile and it's gold.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#24 - 2012-08-09 15:27:26 UTC
One issue I have with this is that ewar range is already quite long, and a range bonus is not going to be particularly valuable.

What about giving them a secondary bonus to their "ally" ewar type.

ie, vigil and maulus would get damps and tps (with the maulus damp bonus being better than the vigil's, and the opposite for TPs), and the same for the crucifier and griffin.
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#25 - 2012-08-09 15:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Del Vikus
I'm OK with the Vigil losing the speed bonus, but it's by far the least useful ship in this list. Why? Not because of the new layout, but because TPs are just inherently crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. Nobody really flew Vigils before because of the TP bonus; they flew them because of speed, sig radius, etc. Now that those bonuses are gone, all you're left is the TP bonuses, which were always the least useful part of the Vigil.

Put another way: I'm fine with these changes as long as you've got TP changes in store. If not, I just don't see the point of getting into a Vigil (as compared to the changes to the Crucifier, which make it really really nasty). All you've done is take things away from the Vigil.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-08-09 15:33:35 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
I'm OK with the Vigil losing the speed bonus, but it's by far the least useful ship in this list. Why? Not because of the new layout, but because TPs are just inherently crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. it is universally acknowledged that TPs are crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. Nobody really flew Vigils before because of the TP bonus; they flew them because of speed, sig radius, etc. Now that those bonuses are gone, all you're left is the TP bonuses, which were always the least useful part of the Vigil.

Put another way: I'm fine with these changes as long as you've got TP changes in store. If not, I just don't see the point of getting into a Vigil (as compared to the changes to the Crucifier, which make it really really nasty). All you've done is take things away from the Vigil.
So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#27 - 2012-08-09 15:36:41 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?


In response, let me quote Arkady:

Quote:
Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-08-09 15:37:54 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
One issue I have with this is that ewar range is already quite long, and a range bonus is not going to be particularly valuable.

What about giving them a secondary bonus to their "ally" ewar type.

ie, vigil and maulus would get damps and tps (with the maulus damp bonus being better than the vigil's, and the opposite for TPs), and the same for the crucifier and griffin.



I don't know, for the crucifier I'd rather have the optimal bonus than two bonuses with no synergy. In fleet battle, it allows you to fly it like a mini arbitrator: stay away from the blob, TD their main dps ship and use your drone to apply dps on the primary. Fun little ship.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#29 - 2012-08-09 15:42:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.


I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans. Twisted


:) heh you should try fitting the drone navigation modules then, specially on a carrier with 15 warriors out... they move so fast you can't even recall them to the ship again (they basicly just orbit you at very high speed then :DD!!!!)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#30 - 2012-08-09 15:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Going back to my point about the Vigil being underwhelming is really simple.


The target painting bonus for range sounds good but in reality it doesn't help the Vigil in a real situation. A T2 TP reaches 30km base, with some skills it'll go out to 45km currently, with recommended applied bonus it will get out to 67km.

So, that sound great, but when you have a Vigil out at 67km target painting, a sniping cruiser can hit it easy. BLAP, off the field.

The problem with setting up EWAR for long range is basically that the transversal/sig radius calculation to hit is pretty not generous in these situations and they become easy targets for long range cruisers. The Crucifier has the ability to TD the most threatening turret ship potentially, but the Vigil just becomes an easy target. The Maulus can dampen a ship trying to target it, the Griffin can try and jam it. But the Vigil just shines a pretty laser at them. Also, it has no weapon system that will be able to reach that far. Light missiles will reach 40km. So they're going to really just get pinched out of whatever functionality you want.

Also, the powergrid is really weak.

25PG With L5 Skills = 31.25 PG

1MN MWD (Meta) - 15 PG = 16.25 PG
LML II ................... - 8.1 PG x2 = .05 PG remaining

And where am i supposed to fit the Target Painter?

OR Meta 4 launchers 7.2x2 = 1.85 PG

So I can only fit 1 TP but have 3 mid slots open?

I think your PG on all the ships seems low TBH. Give them a boost so that they can actually have some fitting space. I understand these aren't DPS ships, but giving them the ability to fit 22 DPS or maybe some tank (God forbid) is hardly going to break them.



And I had to find the quote from CCP Ytterbium about Target painting because it's probably my favorite quote from Fanfest ::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2626s


(And the general EWAR quote which I like, especially about ECM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2605s

Where I am.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-08-09 15:49:32 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

And I had to find the quote from CCP Ytterbium about Target painting because it's probably my favorite quote from Fanfest ::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2626s


(And the general EWAR quote which I like, especially about ECM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2605s
Erm, can I get a transcript of those quotes? the captioning on those are...."gibberish"
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#32 - 2012-08-09 15:50:17 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Going back to my point about the Vigil being underwhelming is really simple.
*snip*


This.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#33 - 2012-08-09 15:57:44 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

And I had to find the quote from CCP Ytterbium about Target painting because it's probably my favorite quote from Fanfest ::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2626s


(And the general EWAR quote which I like, especially about ECM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2605s
Erm, can I get a transcript of those quotes? the captioning on those are...."gibberish"


What! I understand him perfectly fine... Lol

Link #1 :

Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!



Link #2
So we're not happy with ECM in general but again it's very tricky to do beacuse we don't want to make it useless, if anything we want to take a look at EWAR in general, we want to take a look at dampeners. You use the Arazu or Lachesis for warp disruption range generally not for the dampening. Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!


Where I am.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-08-09 15:59:55 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


What! I understand him perfectly fine... Lol

Link #1 :

Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!



Link #2
So we're not happy with ECM in general but again it's very tricky to do beacuse we don't want to make it useless, if anything we want to take a look at EWAR in general, we want to take a look at dampeners. You use the Arazu or Lachesis for warp disruption range generally not for the dampening. Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!


Thank you and well, I'm deaf and well-read. The captioning for Audio Transcribe on some of those youtube clips make my eyes bleed What?
Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-08-09 16:04:10 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?

Assuming that I've done my math right*:
1 TP is equivalent to a 32% web
2 TPs are equivalent to a 52% web
3 TPs are equivalent to a 60% web

*max skilled T2 TPs with a 5%/level ship bonus, no rigs
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#36 - 2012-08-09 16:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:


What! I understand him perfectly fine... Lol

Link #1 :

Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!



Link #2
So we're not happy with ECM in general but again it's very tricky to do beacuse we don't want to make it useless, if anything we want to take a look at EWAR in general, we want to take a look at dampeners. You use the Arazu or Lachesis for warp disruption range generally not for the dampening. Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!


Thank you and well, I'm deaf and well-read. The captioning for Audio Transcribe on some of those youtube clips make my eyes bleed What?



Google Translate doesn't seem to handle the foreign accents so well... And CCP Ytterbium is infamously difficult to understand. Glad to help you out. :)

I thought you were just having a hard time understanding him (as some do), hence the comment! (CCP Ytterbium, love your work on Ship Balancing, don't hate on me ;p )

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#37 - 2012-08-09 16:09:12 UTC
Mira Luhtanen wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?

Assuming that I've done my math right*:
1 TP is equivalent to a 32% web
2 TPs are equivalent to a 52% web
3 TPs are equivalent to a 60% web

*max skilled T2 TPs with a 5%/level ship bonus, no rigs



I guess I'm trying to understand how you're converting from Sig Radius to speed reduction in this case?

Where I am.
Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-08-09 16:20:53 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
I guess I'm trying to understand how you're converting from Sig Radius to speed reduction in this case?

From here: Tracking Formula

Doubling sig radius should affect tracking in the exact same way as halving transversal speed.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#39 - 2012-08-09 16:44:22 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.


I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans. Twisted


:) heh you should try fitting the drone navigation modules then, specially on a carrier with 15 warriors out... they move so fast you can't even recall them to the ship again (they basicly just orbit you at very high speed then :DD!!!!)


They also overshoot frigates and lose out on tons of damage when they are that fast.
kodohumper
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#40 - 2012-08-09 18:03:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)


In the immortal words of Darth Vader:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*sniffle* don't remove the speed bonus *sniffle*