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Command Links, Honor, and You

Author
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#21 - 2012-08-09 01:15:02 UTC
It ultimately limits you on the battlefield. You either sit in one spot and wait for the enemy to come to you or you move methodically and ponderously through systems giving everyone lots of time to get out of your way. And as stated above, once you learn who the boosters are you can make an informed decision as whether to fight or flee. There is no shame in not engaging someone backed by a billion isk toy.

I don't judge someone if they have the booster alt. I judge them by what they do when they don't have it. Are you going to come get me in this plex? Or do you have to log in your booster and move it four jumps first? CCP has stated their intent to kill off-grid boosting. When they do the people who can't function without one are going to be in a world of hurt.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-08-09 01:36:16 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
I have a problem with the term 'honour' in Eve - a game where ruthless megacorporations are supposed to fight each other with all means possible.

This is not Q3 Arena, where people meet for a duel of skills - having an honourable '1on1' makes about as much sense to me as firing up your favourite RTS game and agree to meet with one infantry guy in the middle of the battlefield - it entirely defeats the purpose of the game, which is finding a strategy where you are in the favourable position - preferrably by making the other guy(s) wrongly assume he is in the favourable position.



Having that said, in seven years of playing this game, I have never used an offgrid booster despite of having characters very well capable of doing it and tripleboxing on three screens.

Probing alt? Yes. Hauling around some cap boosters for my PvP character in a Blockade Runner? Yes.

Falcon alts or offgrid boosters? Never.

It's not entirely rational and I can't blame people using the current mechanics to their full extent, but I wont - simply because i consider these mechanics entirely broken.

I play games to have a good time, and I have a better time losing some fights than winning whilst using mechanics I despise.


I don't use ECM drones or jammers for the same reason (when I loot them I even don't sell those items on - I either reprocess them or jet them and shoot the can, no matter what they're worth).

Guess it's some categorical imperative thing rooted so deeply within my personality I carried it over from RL - or I'm just a moron.


This. I don't mind that people use them, but I don't do it myself.

Now, honestly I fully trained my hauler alt for both Falcon and Links. Just have never used them. Like you said, it's some kind of strange personality quirk. I just typically don't cheat or bend the rules, even when no one is looking. It's kinda stupid actually. /shrug

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Vytone
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#23 - 2012-08-09 06:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vytone
So using some of the logic I've heard that using an offgrid booster is unfair then you can make the same argument for faction implants, and drugs. I think if it's in the game it's entirely fair. If you don't like it then don't use a booster, but I've spent time and effort training alts to do just that and to nerf them because some of the blobbier alliance don't like small gangs coming deep into 0.0 and giving good fight, then I say tough ****. Plus whenever I 1 v 1, I get into fleet with my opponent and warp to a ss to fight. It eliminates the bonus factor plus gives you a few second head start in the case of dishonor.

If bigger alliances are complaining about off-grid boosters then fine, create a system upgrade they can install that would "jam" or nullify boosting altogether in that particular system that's upgraded. Make it expensive so it doesnt make fiscal sense to upgrade a region, but don't completely destroy a game mechanic based on some peoples dislike for off-grid boosters.

I for one have a second account that I used specifically for boosting. If it gets nerfed, then that's 1 less account being paid for to CCP. If they care about their subscriber-ship, they will take into account the alts used for boosting that will go unsubbed. It's just bad business.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-09 07:46:38 UTC
I don't think any big alliances are really loudly complaining about command links. They're commonly used and accepted in alliance warfare. It's mostly the "I want a 1v1 but I want it to be on MY terms and I want CCP to enforce MY terms for me" crowd.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-08-09 08:13:05 UTC
Using a booster means it is already 2 players, so it is not 1vs1 anymore.
How honorable or acceptable this is, everyone decides for himself. Just as I said, it is not practically 1vs1 anymore, while can be seen by others as 1vs1. Same as bringing a cloaky logi/falcon/cyno whatever.
If I agree to 1v1, I won't bring (or stay in a fleet with) a booster, of course.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#26 - 2012-08-09 09:07:17 UTC
Clarify 1v1?

1 person v 1 person

or

1 ship v 1 ship

If it isn't explicitly the latter, assume the former.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-08-09 09:12:57 UTC
Fair is fair and war is war, and the two don't have a close relationship. If you challenge someone to a 1v1 and have someone in another ship providing you boosts or logi support or jamming support, then it's not a 1v1 and you've proven nothing other than that you're a sneaky bastard who'll do anything to prevail. Which is sort of the core philosophy of EVE, but doesn't have anything to do with honor.

Booster pills and implants are fine; that's just you. Anything you can do to make yourself a better pilot, or your own ship a better platform, without bringing another pilot/ship into it, is fair game in a 1v1, in my opinion.

On the other hand ... if you just go out looking for a brawl, and you "challenge" the other guy by hitting him with a disruptor, then he's under no obligation to take you on 1v1. If I'm minding my own business and someone decides to scram me and open fire, I'm not blackening my reputation if I've got friends in system who are ready and willing to drop on the aggressor's head, rep me up, point and scram him and throw enough DPS to grind him into tinsel.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Vytone
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#28 - 2012-08-09 09:50:13 UTC
Vytone wrote:
So using some of the logic I've heard that using an offgrid booster is unfair then you can make the same argument for faction implants, and drugs. I think if it's in the game it's entirely fair. If you don't like it then don't use a booster, but I've spent time and effort training alts to do just that and to nerf them because some of the blobbier alliance don't like small gangs coming deep into 0.0 and giving good fight, then I say tough ****. Plus whenever I 1 v 1, I get into fleet with my opponent and warp to a ss to fight. It eliminates the bonus factor plus gives you a few second head start in the case of dishonor.

If bigger alliances are complaining about off-grid boosters then fine, create a system upgrade they can install that would "jam" or nullify boosting altogether in that particular system that's upgraded. Make it expensive so it doesnt make fiscal sense to upgrade a region, but don't completely destroy a game mechanic based on some peoples dislike for off-grid boosters.

I for one have a second account that I used specifically for boosting. If it gets nerfed, then that's 1 less account being paid for to CCP. If they care about their subscriber-ship, they will take into account the alts used for boosting that will go unsubbed. It's just bad business.




I agree about 1 vs. 1's that's why I said I get into fleet with people, but otherwise I don't understand why some people's dislike boosting alts .

And yes there is some chatter regarding boosting alts among the bigger alliances, as discussed in the cCSM meeting.
Lugalzagezi666
#29 - 2012-08-09 11:45:50 UTC
Vytone wrote:
I agree about 1 vs. 1's that's why I said I get into fleet with people, but otherwise I don't understand why some people's dislike boosting alts.


I personally dislike them because they significantly affect the fight without getting into any real risk, sometimes completely unnoticed (especially when we are taling about "1v1s"). And mostly because they require close to zero effort, attention and piloting skills to provide massive benefits.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#30 - 2012-08-09 15:50:22 UTC
Vytone wrote:
So using some of the logic I've heard that using an offgrid booster is unfair then you can make the same argument for faction implants, and drugs.


I disagree - I often use implants, but the difference is that these assets are present in the fight. If my pod gets killed I'm 2.x billion isk poorer. Granted, the likelihood of my pod getting killed is miniscule in lowsec, but running into some smarbombing BS whilst podding it home bears way more risk than doing it in a cloaky T3.

Concerning boosters: They have side effects, so either you make a fit that isn't susceptible to any of the possible side-effects or you'll have some drawback. When CCP thought about boosting them by removing the side effects entirely, people rightfully argued that if they only offer benefits, they'd become a pure necessity.

CCP realized the problem and canceled their plans.

Now off-grid boosters - once the initial investment has been made - are a a risk free bonus without any drawback (and don't tell me there's a risk - make a few proper safes, set D-scan-range according to your ships signature radius, hit it every now and then and if probes appear, warp to the next safe - rinse and repeat - the people getting their booster alts killed must be complete clodpoles).


Quote:
I think if it's in the game it's entirely fair.


Agreed - that's why it should be taken out of the game.

Quote:
If bigger alliances are complaining about off-grid boosters then fine, create a system upgrade they can install that would "jam" or nullify boosting altogether in that particular system that's upgraded. Make it expensive so it doesnt make fiscal sense to upgrade a region, but don't completely destroy a game mechanic based on some peoples dislike for off-grid boosters.


First you say you use them as a counter to blobby alliances and then you mention they should be able to upgrade their space with offgrid booster jammers? Hello? Anybody home?

In general, I think 'the other side is blobbing so I use an exploit a flawed game mechanic' is just a bad excuse for bad PvP players who carebeared their way up to be able to buy a risk-free advantage, which will soon be a necessity.

It discourages young players from grabbing their ft1 frig and go out on their own to shoot things because every other guy they encounter has an offgrid booster

Luckily, CCP has stated they want it gone on numerous occasions and have shown they will enforce such things if they are detrimental to gameplay (see the falcon nerf as an example - whilst still being used by some, their use is far less rampant than it was pre-nerf and I guess a lot of falcon alts were unsubbed back then).

You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-08-09 17:24:44 UTC
there are a few valid arguements in here, but simply it isn't a 1v1 if there is a booster alt involved.

THIS IS WHY YOU ALWAYS FLEET UP FOR 1v1's

if your opponent drops fleet in teh middle of the fight or mid warp GTFO unless you are feeling balsy

I has all the eve inactivity

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#32 - 2012-08-09 17:51:05 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
there are a few valid arguements in here, but simply it isn't a 1v1 if there is a booster alt involved.

THIS IS WHY YOU ALWAYS FLEET UP FOR 1v1's

if your opponent drops fleet in teh middle of the fight or mid warp GTFO unless you are feeling balsy



I haven't had any agreed 1v1s in a while but it used to be very rare thta people would violate the agreement. But yes a booster ship plus another ship is not one ship.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Terminator56
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-08-09 19:11:12 UTC
Just like everyone else says, if its an agreed 1v1 invite them to a fleet and use a SS. Otherwise don't complain about someone using a booster to take on larger groups of people.
Zulol
N.F.H.P.
#34 - 2012-08-10 01:50:22 UTC
CarmenIbanez wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
As a fleet booster myself, grow a ******* pair and boost on grid you coward.


To be more specific, I am referring to the all to common 1v1 frigate brawls in low security space. As in, using another character to provide off-grid links to gain that unfair advantage.





This is Eve, there is no such thing as a 1v1. Anytime you engage another player expect an entire fleet to swoop in on you.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#35 - 2012-08-10 04:18:32 UTC
Usually in Eve what appears to be a 1v1 isn't really a 1v1.


Always fleet with anyone who offers 1v1 and be the fleet boss unless you know they can be trusted.

Make sure fleet window has a big red x and no bonuses are being applied.

If they fleet invite you - you must leave the fleet window open and visible - if another pilot appears in fleet then drop fleet and bail out cause they are about to dishonor the 1v1. Local spike can be same thing so never fight off a celestial. Only safes that will take some scanning.

Just cause someone asks for a 1v1 doesn't mean you need to respond and agree.

Best to simply say nothing and gank them with everything you got.
Dan Carter Murray
#36 - 2012-08-10 04:38:26 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
I have a problem with the term 'honour' in Eve - a game where ruthless megacorporations are supposed to fight each other with all means possible.

This is not Q3 Arena, where people meet for a duel of skills - having an honourable '1on1' makes about as much sense to me as firing up your favourite RTS game and agree to meet with one infantry guy in the middle of the battlefield - it entirely defeats the purpose of the game, which is finding a strategy where you are in the favourable position - preferrably by making the other guy(s) wrongly assume he is in the favourable position.



Having that said, in seven years of playing this game, I have never used an offgrid booster despite of having characters very well capable of doing it and tripleboxing on three screens.

Probing alt? Yes. Hauling around some cap boosters for my PvP character in a Blockade Runner? Yes.

Falcon alts or offgrid boosters? Never.

It's not entirely rational and I can't blame people using the current mechanics to their full extent, but I wont - simply because i consider these mechanics entirely broken.

I play games to have a good time, and I have a better time losing some fights than winning whilst using mechanics I despise.


I don't use ECM drones or jammers for the same reason (when I loot them I even don't sell those items on - I either reprocess them or jet them and shoot the can, no matter what they're worth).

Guess it's some categorical imperative thing rooted so deeply within my personality I carried it over from RL - or I'm just a moron.


This. I don't mind that people use them, but I don't do it myself.

Now, honestly I fully trained my hauler alt for both Falcon and Links. Just have never used them. Like you said, it's some kind of strange personality quirk. I just typically don't cheat or bend the rules, even when no one is looking. It's kinda stupid actually. /shrug


It's overkill to use them since you field 3:1

No offense

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-08-10 05:18:13 UTC
it was 8 v 5. we came back. Although we tried, not everything can be even, sadly. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-08-10 06:07:24 UTC
I think it's fine. It's just something you plan for, and deal with. If you're careful, it's fairly easy to tell who has an off-grid boost before you commit to a fight. And if they catch you off-guard, you can remember them for next time and prepare accordingly.

All that said, I'd love to see boosting characters show up on killmails.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#39 - 2012-08-10 14:23:10 UTC
Zulol wrote:
CarmenIbanez wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
As a fleet booster myself, grow a ******* pair and boost on grid you coward.


To be more specific, I am referring to the all to common 1v1 frigate brawls in low security space. As in, using another character to provide off-grid links to gain that unfair advantage.





This is Eve, there is no such thing as a 1v1. Anytime you engage another player expect an entire fleet to swoop in on you.


I have had plenty of 1v1s.
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