These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Latest patching (Mining)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2012-08-08 19:51:12 UTC
Anslo wrote:

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


You dont have to live in null to pvp.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2012-08-08 19:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Anslo wrote:
It's a problem with you when you take that data as absolute truth.
It's the truth as best as we know it.
More importantly, it is the truth as CCP knows it, and it's the truth they're acting on.

Quote:
You just pick and choose what information suits your needs.
No. I pick the information that is available to us. If I picked and chose, you would have no problem finding other information to disprove my statements… but you have consistently been able to provide anything ever to support the numbers you like to pull out.

Quote:
But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant.
Because there is abundant PvP in highsec as well, for one. For another, there's one of those unsupported claims again: what statistics are you relying on when saying that there are far more people in highsec? How do you define “people”? There are population numbers out there for the various parts of space, you know (or well… maybe you don't or one would think that you would actually have referenced them by now).
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#103 - 2012-08-08 19:53:40 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
See my past statement. While you have data, there is no proof this data is an unbiased sample not loaded with nul sec/pirate answers.
…and as mentioned, your distrust of CCP is your problem. This are the data they collected and which they are acting on. If you want to collect “better” data, then go out and do so and see if you can get their attention.

Quote:
A stretch of the imagination?
Very much so, especially when you consider the swerve they took towards focusing on the issues that those groups are more interested in after having tried what you're asking them to try and getting a nice 10% reduction in subscription rates, a small short-term financial crisis, and a 20% reduction of staff as their only result…

Quote:
But then again, so is your interpretation.
No. It's not a stretch of the imagination. It's not even an interpretation. It's simply restating what CCP's own number says in words. It's not my data. It's theirs. What they're seeing is not what you hope, and that's too bad… for you. It's probably very good for the game.


It's a problem with you when you take that data as absolute truth. You just pick and choose what information suits your needs. If this was a full study, and I could see that there was an even distribution of polled players from newbie all the way to bitter vet nul-tard, then I'd say fine and be done with it. That would be a completely valid statistic.

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


It IS pretty convenient to ignore the fact that for every PVP main there are usually at least one (and usually more) high sec alts of that player funding his combat.... on top of the percentage of the population that stays away from PVP and null sec completely.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#104 - 2012-08-08 19:53:45 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
.... (By all means, if you ENJOY mining ice, go for it!)

.....

Shocked
I died a little inside.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#105 - 2012-08-08 19:55:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


You dont have to live in null to pvp.


Yup. I PvP in lowsec. Some people PvP in hi-sec. Some people live in hi-sec and do roams through low/null/WHspace. Where people live is not a good indicator of what they enjoy spending their time doing. Hell, some people PvP in these places, and then have alts in hisec to do other things that they want to keep disconnected, like mining, or market trading, or hauling, or missioning.

What matters is not "What number of accounts are doing what?" but "What do the players behind those accounts like doing." CCP asked that, and found that 75% of respondents said they like PvP, as well as other things.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#106 - 2012-08-08 19:57:35 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
.... (By all means, if you ENJOY mining ice, go for it!)

.....

Shocked
I died a little inside.


Hey, different strokes for different folks. I've mined ice before, before I became a nasty evil pirate. I still will, if my corporation is running an op, because then I am mostly just hanging around on TS3 with them and doing something other than ship spinning.
Anslo
Scope Works
#107 - 2012-08-08 19:57:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


You dont have to live in null to pvp.


No, you don't sure, but then what about this?

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBERS IN BOUND.

70% of the server stay in High sec

30% stay in nul/low

They survey says 70% like to be in nul sec. OK.

Yet, only 30% of the total server population is IN nul sec. See my concern?

But then when I think more, how can one say that the 75% who like PvP actually mean ship to ship PvP...and that they don't define it differently, or that they like to watch it, not necessarily partake in it...

OK, now I'm interested to see the data behind that chart and less about the argument. Can CCP publish the data???

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2012-08-08 19:58:41 UTC
So wait, all the ice miner bots are going to be required to run expensive ice miner rigs?

This was a stealth buff to ganking. Thank you CCP!
Anslo
Scope Works
#109 - 2012-08-08 19:59:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Because there is abundant PvP in highsec as well, for one. For another, there's one of those unsupported claims again: what statistics are you relying on when saying that there are far more people in highsec? How do you define “people”? There are population numbers out there for the various parts of space, you know (or well… maybe you don't or one would think that you would actually have referenced them by now).



Click on the map overlay in game and select view current pilots in space. :\

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#110 - 2012-08-08 19:59:22 UTC
Anslo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


You dont have to live in null to pvp.


No, you don't sure, but then what about this?

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBERS IN BOUND.

70% of the server stay in High sec

30% stay in nul/low

They survey says 70% like to be in nul sec. OK.

Yet, only 30% of the total server population is IN nul sec. See my concern?

But then when I think more, how can one say that the 75% who like PvP actually mean ship to ship PvP...and that they don't define it differently, or that they like to watch it, not necessarily partake in it...

OK, now I'm interested to see the data behind that chart and less about the argument. Can CCP publish the data???


You are getting WAY off the track here, Anslo.
Anslo
Scope Works
#111 - 2012-08-08 20:01:15 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Anslo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:

But the big thing to question this is what follows, while they may LIKE to pvp and nul in the majority, why are there more people, FAR more in high sec than low and nul, where pvp is abundant. If the data were true, would we not see an abundance of players within the low and nul regions? Same can be said with the 70-odd% who like Nul. This is why I question the data. The fact that you just take it as face value makes your argument uneducated an moot.


You dont have to live in null to pvp.


No, you don't sure, but then what about this?

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBERS IN BOUND.

70% of the server stay in High sec

30% stay in nul/low

They survey says 70% like to be in nul sec. OK.

Yet, only 30% of the total server population is IN nul sec. See my concern?

But then when I think more, how can one say that the 75% who like PvP actually mean ship to ship PvP...and that they don't define it differently, or that they like to watch it, not necessarily partake in it...

OK, now I'm interested to see the data behind that chart and less about the argument. Can CCP publish the data???


You are getting WAY off the track here, Anslo.


How?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#112 - 2012-08-08 20:04:03 UTC
Alts, people who are in hi-sec at the moment who normally live in null-sec, different time zones, etc.
Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2012-08-08 20:05:48 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Yet, only 30% of the total server population is IN nul sec. See my concern?


This is because Nullsec has so few money making opportunities that it is literally easier to roll up an alt and run L4 Missions than try to make money in Nullsec.

Not to mention market alts and 10 hour heroes.

Don't fool yourself. This is a PVP game. The fact that everyone's in the Carebear Newbie Lands is a bad, horrible, disgusting sign of a disease that is killing EVE.
Hiyora Akachi
Advanced Hole Theory
#114 - 2012-08-08 20:09:43 UTC
Gentlemen, you've forgotten the most important rule of EvE.



Never argue with a person who made their character a dumb blonde bimbo. They tend to be mildly stupid.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#115 - 2012-08-08 20:11:21 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

You dont produce it for next to nothing. You produce it with 9 hours of work. Im going to use minimum wage in Ontario, where I live, as an example, so your mileage may vary but...

9 hours x $10.50 an hour (last I checked) = $94.50. Thats how much your time should be worth to you. If you dont want to use real life as an example, thats fine too. Take how much you COULD be earning doing something else, and how much you would earn mining ice if you sold that ice on the market (I guarantee it's probably less). If it only takes you 5 hours to earn the ISK you would need to buy the fuel you need on the market, you should be doing that, all things being equal (By all means, if you ENJOY mining ice, go for it!)

It's called opportunity cost.


Noted.

As for my previous statement about your economic aptitude, I take that back.





But while your at it... forecast this.

At what point will the isk cost of tower fuel (inflation due to a decrease in supply with no demand elasticity), exceed the cost of man power needed per hour to mine the ice for the fuel?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2012-08-08 20:13:38 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Click on the map overlay in game and select view current pilots in space. :\
…and the statistics are…?

Quote:
HYPOTHETICAL NUMBERS IN BOUND.
No, let's use actual numbers instead.

For characters over 5M SP (i.e. not counting complete and undecided newbies, and special-purpose utility alts such as trade-hub watchers and spammers, cyno alts and the like):

W-Space: 6.4%
Nullsec: 20.7%
Lowsec: 7.6%
Highsec: 65.3%

Quote:
They survey says 70% like to be in nul sec. OK.

Yet, only 30% of the total server population is IN nul sec. See my concern?
Yes. It's also rather easy to see why it's not particularly concerning.

34.7% of characters live outside highsec. It is well within the realm of plausibility that for every non-highsec character, there is a highsec alt for the same player doing… whatever in highsec. This means that the overall distribution of characters actually is:

34.7% non-highsec characters.
34.7% alts to the above characters.
30.6% highsec-only characters and their (also highsec-only) alts.

Why do 30% of players feel indifferent or dislike for nullsec? Because only 30% of the players actually have highsec as their only home. The other 70% live all over the place — high, low, null — and either spend a large portion of their time in null (with an alt idling in high) or take the occasional roam into null (while also leaving an idling highsec alt behind). These two groups enjoy null. What might skew the numbers is the alt ratio of those highsec players: if it's vastly different than for the non-highsec players, the percentages will vary — if highseccers have fewer alts on average, the percentage of highsec-only players will be higher than the pure character count suggests; if highseccers have more alts on average, the percentage will be lower.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#117 - 2012-08-08 20:16:26 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

You dont produce it for next to nothing. You produce it with 9 hours of work. Im going to use minimum wage in Ontario, where I live, as an example, so your mileage may vary but...

9 hours x $10.50 an hour (last I checked) = $94.50. Thats how much your time should be worth to you. If you dont want to use real life as an example, thats fine too. Take how much you COULD be earning doing something else, and how much you would earn mining ice if you sold that ice on the market (I guarantee it's probably less). If it only takes you 5 hours to earn the ISK you would need to buy the fuel you need on the market, you should be doing that, all things being equal (By all means, if you ENJOY mining ice, go for it!)

It's called opportunity cost.


Noted.

As for my previous statement about your economic aptitude, I take that back.





But while your at it... forecast this.

At what point will the isk cost of tower fuel (inflation due to a decrease in supply with no demand elasticity), exceed the cost of man power needed per hour to mine the ice for the fuel?


Well, that would be up to you to decide, but in general you would again apply the concept of all things being equal. When you can make more money mining ice than doing something you enjoy equally well or less, at that point you should be mining ice, from a purely economics perspective.

However, there are always people mining ice. Always. It slowed down a bit when Screegs started banning the bots and the goons launched the ice interdiction, but this meant that ice mining became slightly better, which attracted more people to doing it.

This goes for mining, too, by the way. If you are building something of significant mineral cost, you should take advantage of the fact that people have already put the manpower into getting those minerals for you, and buy them off the market. This leaves your time free to do whatever you want to do (which could be mining, who knows! It's all up to you at that point. What do you ENJOY doing?)
Tribal Haynar
Minmator Tribal Association L.L.C. Corp
#118 - 2012-08-08 20:21:27 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Boadicea Wales wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
There is no specific ice mining ship. You can stick a rig in either A) The mining ship designed to have an incredible tank B) the ship designed to have an incredible hold or C) The ship with an ice cycle bonus but which works best with support.


tale about stating the blddeing obvious lol dude stick to the point and stop being silly no one likes a smart arse.

oh btw your welcome


I just don't see what you are complaining about. You have been freed from the shackles of their only being one choice when mining! Now you get to have a ship that is customized specifically to your particular style and needs.

Other miners see this as a nerf. I see this as a buff. Hallelujah! Free at last!



A miner who uses a Hulk has ever right to complain.... T2 rigs for example to increasing cargohold cap.... gone!
CCP just wants the miner to take it on the chin.. Say good-bye to billions in T2 rig improvements installed on your hulks... Oh well...
How about the - bend over job - on the time and training involved to get to the Hulk to the point were its a masterful piece of mining marvel... the miner takes it on the chim again... just say good-bye to 1 year...
Or the countless engagments with gankers and the lose of ships that is in the Billions...So lets lower the Hulks shields and kick the miner in the balls. If that's not enough we now have to deal with small ore cargoholds that barely allows 2 cycles... Mining anymore seems like a second job, were the fun in that...especially with the amount of ore you get these days... Try mining Scordite for pyerite then try run your mouth...
And for you miner who read this...I'm not sure if any of this helps...you can't but wonder if anyone in CCP even mine anymore.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#119 - 2012-08-08 20:24:40 UTC
Tribal Haynar wrote:
A miner who uses a Hulk has ever right to complain.... T2 rigs for example to increasing cargohold cap.... gone!
CCP just wants the miner to take it on the chin.. Say good-bye to billions in T2 rig improvements installed on your hulks... Oh well...
How about the - bend over job - on the time and training involved to get to the Hulk to the point were its a masterful piece of mining marvel... the miner takes it on the chim again... just say good-bye to 1 year...
Or the countless engagments with gankers and the lose of ships that is in the Billions...So lets lower the Hulks shields and kick the miner in the balls. If that's not enough we now have to deal with small ore cargoholds that barely allows 2 cycles... Mining anymore seems like a second job, were the fun in that...especially with the amount of ore you get these days... Try mining Scordite for pyerite then try run your mouth...
And for you miner who read this...I'm not sure if any of this helps...you can't but wonder if anyone in CCP even mine anymore.

Heh, good stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#120 - 2012-08-08 20:25:33 UTC
Tribal Haynar wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Boadicea Wales wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
There is no specific ice mining ship. You can stick a rig in either A) The mining ship designed to have an incredible tank B) the ship designed to have an incredible hold or C) The ship with an ice cycle bonus but which works best with support.


tale about stating the blddeing obvious lol dude stick to the point and stop being silly no one likes a smart arse.

oh btw your welcome


I just don't see what you are complaining about. You have been freed from the shackles of their only being one choice when mining! Now you get to have a ship that is customized specifically to your particular style and needs.

Other miners see this as a nerf. I see this as a buff. Hallelujah! Free at last!



A miner who uses a Hulk has ever right to complain.... T2 rigs for example to increasing cargohold cap.... gone!
CCP just wants the miner to take it on the chin.. Say good-bye to billions in T2 rig improvements installed on your hulks... Oh well...
How about the - bend over job - on the time and training involved to get to the Hulk to the point were its a masterful piece of mining marvel... the miner takes it on the chim again... just say good-bye to 1 year...
Or the countless engagments with gankers and the lose of ships that is in the Billions...So lets lower the Hulks shields and kick the miner in the balls. If that's not enough we now have to deal with small ore cargoholds that barely allows 2 cycles... Mining anymore seems like a second job, were the fun in that...especially with the amount of ore you get these days... Try mining Scordite for pyerite then try run your mouth...
And for you miner who read this...I'm not sure if any of this helps...you can't but wonder if anyone in CCP even mine anymore.


Install tanking or yield rigs instead, and mine in a group.

OR

Sell your hulk for a Mackinaw, install agility rigs, and solo mine in relative safety (as long as you keep an eye on D-Scan).

You're welcome.