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New Punisher and Merlin and their T2
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-05-28 11:49:44 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Oh boy with the Tiericide and Tech 1 ship balancing. I think EVERY ADVANCED TECH SHIP will need a makeover.



Coming soon in 2020.......



For the meanwhile keep training destroyers 5 BC's 5 and at least enough to lvl1 all BS, lvl5 all frigs and lvl5 all cruisers, it's worthy.

brb
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#22 - 2012-05-28 21:04:06 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Yes, the pace of the rebalancing changes does not seem to have been corrected by CCP. Be prepared for a game with many odd imbalances existing for years to come. Sad


This is what happens when you have lots of different people "balancing" small sections of the game at different times. You have an inevitable **** storm of shoddy game play for literally forever.

Only way we are EVER going to get a well balanced sandbox is if every ship in the game is balanced against eachother at the same god damn time. This is not rocket science (i'm sure for some of the ccp staff it may seem to be), it's common sense...
Liam Mirren
#23 - 2012-05-28 22:44:28 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Yes, the pace of the rebalancing changes does not seem to have been corrected by CCP. Be prepared for a game with many odd imbalances existing for years to come. Sad


This is what happens when you have lots of different people "balancing" small sections of the game at different times. You have an inevitable **** storm of shoddy game play for literally forever.

Only way we are EVER going to get a well balanced sandbox is if every ship in the game is balanced against eachother at the same god damn time. This is not rocket science (i'm sure for some of the ccp staff it may seem to be), it's common sense...


While I fully agree there's more to it than that, because any DEV who thinks that the current Merlin Iteration makes sense doesn't understand what he's doing. And that really is the underlying problem, DEVs who simply lack the knowledge on the subjects they''re working on. Recent example are the wardec and aggression changes which were done by folks who obviously lacked proper knowledge on the subject.

The same thing happened a few years ago with projectiles, it got AND more falloff due to TC/TE affecting falloff AND they made the ammo changes, at the exact same time. Each change on their own was already good but two of them together made it silly. It's the same thing here, you give the merlin AND a third turret slot AND a damage bonus. GUESS WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN!

The game is being made by clueless people who simply lack the insight to predict results of the stuff they do, it's a scary thought. And now they're working on some clown thing called the micro jump drive in a "oooh, sounds cool" kind of way, they just don't see it's going to mess things up and they're trying to push it through for reasons that just shouldn't be.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-05-29 00:56:03 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Yes, the pace of the rebalancing changes does not seem to have been corrected by CCP. Be prepared for a game with many odd imbalances existing for years to come. Sad


This is what happens when you have lots of different people "balancing" small sections of the game at different times. You have an inevitable **** storm of shoddy game play for literally forever.

Only way we are EVER going to get a well balanced sandbox is if every ship in the game is balanced against eachother at the same god damn time. This is not rocket science (i'm sure for some of the ccp staff it may seem to be), it's common sense...

You must support this thread then.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107690
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#25 - 2012-05-29 03:27:19 UTC
Well, my opinion is that the new Merlin looks OP compared to the Bantam because we haven't seen what they are intending for the Bantam yet. Take the Tormentor. Previously it was so atrociously useless it would never get used even if you got one in the training missions. It got a buff, it is now a Death Prawn.

Another opinion of mine is that if this is the way things are going, every rebalanced ship getting more power and DPS, then CCP better hurry up and buff the low-tier cruisers ASAP. You'd be mad to roll around in a Ruppy with Merlins like that shunting about the place - you will get pwned time and time again.

It seems that CCP's idea of balance is just add DPS to everything and increase the power creep of the game much faster. This may be a way of drawing ISK out of the game in some fashion via ship insurance, as in a few years you'll need to insure your ship in case you want to undock in highsec - you will last about ten seconds before a noobship alphas your vindicator.

Well, maybe not that bad, but you get the idea. It seems frigates are heading for near 200DPS / 8K tank envelope, cruisers must be heading for an average 400DPS / 30K tank envelope, leaving BC's in the 600 / 60K range and BS's in the 800 / 90K.

I actually like some of these changes, assuming that the CCP balance cycle stays fast , and they don't focus on unbalancing the T1 frigs and leave the cruisers untouched for too long. With the rest of the low-tier T1 frigs to come, I'd hope that the low-tier Cruisers get a look at fairly quickly because the cycle has to be iterative - and in my opinion CCP's devs need to take their egoes out of it and be prepared to take a step back with things if they go to far in the next iteration.

I am keen to see the Navitas, Burst and Bantam buffed, and the Scythe, Bellicose, Augoror and Moa given some TLC, and quick.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#26 - 2012-05-29 03:37:27 UTC
^ Nice points but I believe they'll divide cruisers into gank and tank categories where only tank can reach 35-40k ehp and gank >400dps.

As for Tormentor I still don't get what they did. How should it fight with only 2 turrets and tank lesser than a Punisher? What is the niche of that ship?
Liam Mirren
#27 - 2012-05-29 06:46:34 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
^ Nice points but I believe they'll divide cruisers into gank and tank categories where only tank can reach 35-40k ehp and gank >400dps.

As for Tormentor I still don't get what they did. How should it fight with only 2 turrets and tank lesser than a Punisher? What is the niche of that ship?


Stop asking valid and logical questions.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#28 - 2012-05-29 06:50:12 UTC
By the Federate Constitution it is my right, poor Caldari!
Liam Mirren
#29 - 2012-05-29 08:05:46 UTC
it confuses the DEVS.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#30 - 2012-05-29 08:26:35 UTC
Come on and relax - first of all the Merlin has always been intended primarily as a hybrid ship and with the missile kestrel coming up for review soon and likely the condor getting missiles too the missile loving ignorants will get something to play with too...

In regards to balance it's clear CCP have chosen the current top frigate for each race, balanced them against eachother within a specific role and is now available to use them as a measure for rebalancing every other frigate...
When doing balancing it's very important to set a standard to avoid stuff like power creeps and upcoming ships becoming off balance.

Expect the next frigates to fill the bombardment role (long range and dps): Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher and Inquisitor (just guessing btw). What I will be specifically interested in is wether CCP will have the ideas to make all the frigates INTERESTING while keeping them all viable for combat. This will be a good indicator of how cruisers and battlecruisers will be handled with all the various roles like RR, Ewar, Links, Mining etc etc

(However I guess using role bonus will play a major part of balancing these and still make them viable in combat)
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-05-29 10:31:48 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
^ Nice points but I believe they'll divide cruisers into gank and tank categories where only tank can reach 35-40k ehp and gank >400dps.

As for Tormentor I still don't get what they did. How should it fight with only 2 turrets and tank lesser than a Punisher? What is the niche of that ship?

Fly it like a slicer or kite at edge of web range.
Bent Barrel
#32 - 2012-05-29 10:51:19 UTC
all I want now is a gallente t1 drone frigate ... all the other t1 frig variants are great after these changes (sure there are imbalances and differences, but that adds to the game for me).
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#33 - 2012-05-29 11:53:06 UTC
I Agree with the fact T2 Fregates should have a better agility and a better speed than T1. a 10% should be enough.
No more. These T2 fregs are awesome.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-05-29 14:38:21 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Well, my opinion is that the new Merlin looks OP compared to the Bantam because we haven't seen what they are intending for the Bantam yet. Take the Tormentor. Previously it was so atrociously useless it would never get used even if you got one in the training missions. It got a buff, it is now a Death Prawn.

Another opinion of mine is that if this is the way things are going, every rebalanced ship getting more power and DPS, then CCP better hurry up and buff the low-tier cruisers ASAP. You'd be mad to roll around in a Ruppy with Merlins like that shunting about the place - you will get pwned time and time again.

It seems that CCP's idea of balance is just add DPS to everything and increase the power creep of the game much faster. This may be a way of drawing ISK out of the game in some fashion via ship insurance, as in a few years you'll need to insure your ship in case you want to undock in highsec - you will last about ten seconds before a noobship alphas your vindicator.

Well, maybe not that bad, but you get the idea. It seems frigates are heading for near 200DPS / 8K tank envelope, cruisers must be heading for an average 400DPS / 30K tank envelope, leaving BC's in the 600 / 60K range and BS's in the 800 / 90K.

I actually like some of these changes, assuming that the CCP balance cycle stays fast , and they don't focus on unbalancing the T1 frigs and leave the cruisers untouched for too long. With the rest of the low-tier T1 frigs to come, I'd hope that the low-tier Cruisers get a look at fairly quickly because the cycle has to be iterative - and in my opinion CCP's devs need to take their egoes out of it and be prepared to take a step back with things if they go to far in the next iteration.

I am keen to see the Navitas, Burst and Bantam buffed, and the Scythe, Bellicose, Augoror and Moa given some TLC, and quick.


I like this. @tleast the increase in damage part. Increasing damage helps smaller scale pvp and larger scale. However, increasing ehp kinda makes the changes mute. @tleast relative to the way they were.

Also, T1 cruisers are already @ the 400dps mark. You must mean 500dps, which is closer the damage teir 1 bc's put out.

Like I've said with the changes to assault frigates. Increase damage, but not tank. Allow t1 cruisers to do near bc damage but with 1 third the ehp. Increase hacs damage to that of tier 2 battlecruisers. Keep ehp @ half that of teir 2 bc's.

See. if that was done. The Taranis and Crusader would still b inline with assault frigates in a way. Slight increase in damage might be needed.

Increasing tank is a nerf to small scale pvp. Increasing damage and reducing is a boost to small scale pvp. Why? Things end alot quicker. Making hit and runs alot more effective and engagements would end before help arrives. In a game were the player base is increasing and suppose to increase. The more players = more pilots, which is a nerf to small scale pvp. More "blobs" basically and less opportunity for hit and run engagements.

Tier 3 bc's are the epidemy of that thinking. Lower hit points, but alot of damage. If a tier 2 bc is able to get right on a tier 3. They will toast it. Otherwise @ range = Tier 3 win.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#35 - 2012-08-08 07:16:03 UTC
FYI, Insurance is considered an ISK faucet except in the very special (and rare) circumstances that a) it expires or b) some stupid ganker is still insuring his Gankalysts.

NINJANECROFTW.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-08-08 09:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Ansel Mandisant wrote:
It seems really odd to me that CCP took the racial weapon for the Caldari away from their primary T1 knockaround frigate. In essence, it seems as though what they have done is given the Caldari what amounts to a blaster pvp platform. If they were going to change the way that the Merlin fights so dramattically, why not do it in a way that didn't remove the racial weapon component from the ship?What?


Technically, the Caldari racial weapon system isn't just the missiles, it's hybrid weapons as well - after all, they have just as many hybrid platforms as they do missile ones, it's just that missiles dominated for a long time.

What we are seeing is a major shift of Caldari hybrid focus after Blaster buff and essentially a "rediscovery" of hybrid platforms. Rokh, previously an excellent sniping platform, is increasingly being used as a shield brawler, Ferox shifted from almost completely useless to actually viable and Merlin has recevied damage bonuses as well, turning it into one of the best frigates currently in game.

In the forseeable future, CCP will have to take another look at Railguns, lest they fall out of favor completely (well, except for Naga and Rokh, which remain awesome sniping platforms).

Quote:
Increase hacs damage to that of tier 2 battlecruisers. Keep ehp @ half that of teir 2 bc's.


Frankly, I'd prefer if the fully trained HACs performed about as well as T3 cruisers (specifically, the Tengu) do today, i.e. a heavy dps speed/sig tanking platform as alternative to T1 battleships (where battleships remain superior vs. battleships, while HACs would be superior vs. smaller craft). I mean, they take about the same time to train, where the Battleships can be developed further towards T2, while HACs stay at that level.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-08-08 14:29:46 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Kaikka Carel wrote:
^ Nice points but I believe they'll divide cruisers into gank and tank categories where only tank can reach 35-40k ehp and gank >400dps.

As for Tormentor I still don't get what they did. How should it fight with only 2 turrets and tank lesser than a Punisher? What is the niche of that ship?


Stop asking valid and logical questions.



FYI, the Tormentor's got three turrets now. Punisher dps. Couple that with a web in it's third mid and what you have is the perfect Merlin counter.

Web 'em, keep them at 8km and Scorch 'em. That's it's niche.


It did this perfectly well before with two turrets. It's just took a bit longer.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#38 - 2012-08-08 15:06:57 UTC
Quote:
Technically, the Caldari racial weapon system isn't just the missiles, it's hybrid weapons as well - after all, they have just as many hybrid platforms as they do missile ones, it's just that missiles dominated for a long time.

He's referring to the fact that the Merlin is the only hybrid gunship in the entire Caldari lineup that has a damage bonus rather than an optimal bonus (e.g. seems to be built as a blasterboat instead of a railboat).

The Rifter would be fine if it maintained its speed advantage over the other frigates. I have no idea why CCP decided that every t1 frigate needs to be exactly as fast as it.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#39 - 2012-08-08 15:22:01 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
So these ships were drastically reworked but their T2 variants still have:

- Speed and inertia based on the older T1 variants. This results in T1 having better stats.
- Both Vengeance and Harpy have damage bonus tied to Assault Ships skill which is not always trained to V. Though it may be compensated by 3 turrets instead of 4 it's still weird.
- Capacitors. Merlins capacitor is superior to Harpy's. In case of Punisher it is somewhat balanced out by recharge times.

Still it looks like some of the developers downgraded the ships...

Should CCP buff respective AFs to the level of those frigates?


Sadly this whole t1 buff is going to leave the gap between t1 and t2 disproportionate for years. Just wait till they get to cruisers and bcs... tech 1 hulls will probably end up with more slots and raw hp than their t2 counterparts... It's blatantly obvious that ccp is going about this whole thing the wrong way.
Vixisti
#40 - 2012-08-08 15:39:37 UTC
AF's are already semi overpowered and you want more buff lol

I agree with an earlier poster in that with all these AF and T1 frigate boosts, Inties got nerfed to high hell and back again as a combat proposition. The only really viable targets for brawler inties are noob ships and other inties.

[u]Failure Cascade Augmentation Squad[/u]
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