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Josef Djugashvilis
#421 - 2012-08-08 11:47:53 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
On the subject of PvE, it could really do with some new missions. I normally only play missions for 7-10 days a year but they are so repetitive and boring.

How full time mission runners are not just insane, I have no idea.


I am so 'insane' I cannot even tell that I am insane anymore.

This is not a signature.
Doddy
Excidium.
#422 - 2012-08-08 11:53:07 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Really and where would you get your ships if industrial characters werent mining the resources and manufacuring them for you?
You're assuming that industrial characters aren't engaging in PvP…

…and even then, you're forgetting the other part: what would those industrial and miner characters do with the stuff they create if there was no market for it? They're not being picked up by the buying fairy…

Selling to the PvE guys who would loose ships or other miners both of who with no-pvp could easily go into the insane anoms of null and WH space freely.

So yes a market exists without PvPers.

PvPers do not exist in this game without miners and Traders.



Yeah, cos pve'ers lose enough ships to support themselves. Roll. And what stops pvpers doing pve? an allergic reaction? A funny version of eve you live in.

If there is no pvp the anoms and plexes are worthless as there is no demand for loot (as the only stuff being lost is by noobs who don't understand the incredibly basic pve mechanics). They get lots of isk from bounties but as everything is incredibly cheap from lack of demand (as practically nothing is being lost) everything is basically free anyway. Eve turns into just another game where you start, grind to the top and quit in 6 months.
Doddy
Excidium.
#423 - 2012-08-08 11:58:31 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Really and where would you get your ships if industrial characters werent mining the resources and manufacuring them for you?
You're assuming that industrial characters aren't engaging in PvP…

…and even then, you're forgetting the other part: what would those industrial and miner characters do with the stuff they create if there was no market for it? They're not being picked up by the buying fairy…

Selling to the PvE guys who would loose ships or other miners both of who with no-pvp could easily go into the insane anoms of null and WH space freely.

So yes a market exists without PvPers.

PvPers do not exist in this game without miners and Traders.



Yeah, cos pve'ers lose enough ships to support themselves. Roll. And what stops pvpers doing pve? an allergic reaction? A funny version of eve you live in.

If there is no pvp the anoms and plexes are worthless as there is no demand for loot (as the only stuff being lost is by noobs who don't understand the incredibly basic pve mechanics). They get lots of isk from bounties but as everything is incredibly cheap from lack of demand (as practically nothing is being lost) everything is basically free anyway. Eve turns into just another game where you start, grind to the top and quit in 6 months.



If everyone has access to 0.0 bounties, and nothing is being lost through pvp, what exactly do you think the mineral prices will be like for the miners? Lol
khamael III
New Rome corp.
#424 - 2012-08-08 12:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: khamael III
wow, in this endless thread one thing in particolar caught my attention:

Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Wspace? The FIRST THING I DID on release day was take a fleet of 13 carebears so deep into Wspace that they got lost and then ransomed them for all their ships and pods or I wouldn't lead them back out.[b] I made 7 billion ISK in ransoms in 40 minutes.


I therefore assume that - in your view - this kind of "risky" tasks is what makes a game "difficult", right?

Let me respectfully disagree with you.

No offence m8, but that Jita scammers - at the end of the story - do more or less the same thing (explointing noob's noobishness) and nobody calls it "hardcore gaming" .
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#425 - 2012-08-08 12:26:35 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:
EVE is all about industry, there wouldn't be any ships without it!

Sounds pretty stupid right?

. . .

EVE is all about PVP, what else would the ships be used for?

JUST. AS. STUPID.

You don't get it do you?

Mining ore in a belt in competition with other miners trying to avoid gankers and thiefs hauling the ore to a station avoiding gakers where there are free factory slots and ideally a cheap office producing ships finding somewhere to sell ships at a good price is all done in competition with other players - hence it is PvP.

Add to that wardecing your competition, hiring mercs to gank their miners and haulers so they move from your space and it is even more obvious.

Now, you may also undercut their orders and fill all factory slots an buy up all the offices at the station to make them leave your market alone.

How cannot you se that it is all about players competing with players - what we usually call PvP?


Everytime I see someone call market-spreadsheet-wars PVP it hurts my brain. Guess I must be PVP'ing for oxygen in Earth's atmosphere right now, eh? When I haul my desktop out of my carboard box behind McDonalds and go down to the homeless shelter I guess I'm PVPing for a bed near a window?

Just what exactly isn't PVP with this ridiculously stilted reasoning? Mining is PVP cause you took that veldspar before someone else did? Literally anything that involved isk ever must be PVP because of the absurdly miniscule affect it had on inflation and/or velocity of the currency? HA! Suck on that all you other people (everybody I guess?) who aren't meaningfully impacted by the mundane tasks that I do, I just PVP'd yalls!

Excuse me now while I hyperventilate whilst trying to oxygen-PVP my neighbors.
Alternatively, YOU ATTEMPT TO EXPLODE INTERNET SPACESHIPS.
Riknarr
Midhalla
#426 - 2012-08-08 12:32:11 UTC
This is now a pointless circular argument. There was a valid contribution a few posts back that suggested that quality strategic spaceship PVP with weapons was being degraded by the gank-fest. I think there just needs to be more of everything, more industry options, more PVP & PVE options, along with new exploration and WiS/FiS stuff.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#427 - 2012-08-08 12:33:28 UTC
Rented wrote:
Everytime I see someone call market-spreadsheet-wars PVP it hurts my brain.
So you're assuming that the people undercutting you on the market, and occasionally buying your stuff and selling things to you, are not players?

Quote:
Just what exactly isn't PVP with this ridiculously stilted reasoning?
The things you listed, for one, since none of them have anything to do with players. As for in-game activities, very few. That's kind of what makes EVE a PvP game: you are always competing with other players over limited resources. You have no instances or shards to ensure that what you want will always be available to you and that your pursuit of something are separate from other people's pursuit of the same thing.

There are tons of games that are designed in such a way that what you're doing does not interfere with what other people are doing. EVE is very purposefully designed to ensure that what you're doing always interferes with other people, making every last activity (except maybe clicking the “request mission” and “complete mission” buttons) PvP in some way or another.
Yakiya Katsuo
Doomheim
#428 - 2012-08-08 12:35:09 UTC
This entire thread is a fail.

/thread
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#429 - 2012-08-08 13:08:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rented wrote:
Everytime I see someone call market-spreadsheet-wars PVP it hurts my brain.
So you're assuming that the people undercutting you on the market, and occasionally buying your stuff and selling things to you, are not players?

Quote:
Just what exactly isn't PVP with this ridiculously stilted reasoning?
The things you listed, for one, since none of them have anything to do with players. As for in-game activities, very few. That's kind of what makes EVE a PvP game: you are always competing with other players over limited resources. You have no instances or shards to ensure that what you want will always be available to you and that your pursuit of something are separate from other people's pursuit of the same thing.

There are tons of games that are designed in such a way that what you're doing does not interfere with what other people are doing. EVE is very purposefully designed to ensure that what you're doing always interferes with other people, making every last activity (except maybe clicking the “request mission” and “complete mission” buttons) PvP in some way or another.


'Competing' for a rock of veldspar is just as meaningfully interactive as .01 isk-ing a market order. You stole those sells from the competition you say? So what! You also stole that veldspar rock from anyone who might've wanted it. Is every auctionhouse in every online game PVP now because you bought that magic sparkly pony before someone else did? In EVE we have a fancy market and can do that in both directions, yay!

Tippia wrote:

you are always competing with other players over limited resources.


I've got bad news, resources aren't limited. Items appears like magic, isk rains from the sky, and those asteroids come right back. And taking a number and waiting in line for your seat on the gravy-train (even with creative usage of sharpies to change your number[Ha! Beat you by .01 isk!]) isn't PVP, not even including that 'limited resources' is frivilous and entirely meaningless to PVP even if it is applicable to the situation. By all means it's PVP if you kill someone and take their 'limited resources'... but that's entirely because you killed them.

To summarize, if two men are walking the shores of South Africa and the first man spots a giant flawless diamond laying in the sand, when the second man grabs it and runs away... no PVP has occured.
Jonni Favorite
Red Slice Enterprise
#430 - 2012-08-08 13:19:30 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Damn...[/sadface]

For those not familiar, the OP is the author of one of the few threads in F&I that is NOT complete and utter puling carebear garbage.

I was just about to plug it in another discussion, but...yeah. (You really should go see that thread, and bump it, though, just on principle. And if you don't see why that is so, then you can **** off back to WoW.)

We need more players like this, not less, but once again, ::CCP:: seems to be crawling up the arse of the "we can Do Mainstream(TM), too!!111oneoneone!" delusion -- because that worked so outstandingly well the last time!

What is left for people like us, people who get the sandbox, and thrive within it, in whatever manner? Less and less, that I can see.

I think I'll go with what Desti said, though, and do similarly:

Give it time --I do love mah losec solo exploration-corner of the sandbox, too-- to see what goes.

(And if the High Command in Reyki were to tell...certain parties...that they have 45 minutes to clean out their desks before Security escorts them from the building, then that would not go amiss, eitherRoll)

o7, Pilot.

Hopefully there'll be something you can come back to eventually, because I think/I hope/I pray that CCP will realise that this new centre they're trying to build, cannot possibly hold.

Why is this?

Because when you take away what makes the sandbox what it is, what gives the community the incentive to make it so, then you are left with --all that you are left with-- Is...

...

...

A not-that-great game whose age is really starting to show. And that's it.



I appreciate your kind words. I really do. But the only thing that CCP understands is money, and the only thing I can do is vote with my cash and take it elsewhere. Frankly, I think it would be an interesting exercise to study how much money CCP makes per person, over the lifetime of that person playing the game, and see just how much money is spent by the older (in Eve play time) players with multiple accounts and long term accounts, vs. younger players that play for a few months and drop it.

I think that the data would show that in the long run, older players end up spending much more money over the lifetime of their playing the game than the hordes of new players.


Doubt it. Most older players probably use plex they buy from younger players trying in vain to catch up..
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#431 - 2012-08-08 13:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
But that's not what Eve is about. Eve is about PVP. And until CCP fixes that, it's not worth subbing. Such a waste.


So instead to whine around, what actually u suggest to be done? Imo EVE is actually finally got on the right course. FW rebalancing, of ships, new modules. I am a low sec dweller and i must say that the low sec in past 2 years was never as alive as it is now.

EDIT

Well i red your post about sensors and terrains. But i think those ideas are:

Firstly, it is very hard to be introduced (Except delayed local).
2nd will lower number of engagements by alot in EVE
3rd Solo pvp would actually almost die, cos u d have to dampen so much your ship so u can find someone and to find someone would be lot of harder.
4th Would rise the barrier to entry PvP (needed lot more skill training) by alot, so again less targets around.

Delayed local is a good thing, would rise ship explosions. People should rely on dscan like 99% of time.
Terrain thing is also not bad, bu i think that d lower the chance to kill someone.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Lexmana
#432 - 2012-08-08 13:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Rented wrote:

Some utter crap

Why do you even play EVE? I am asking because from your description of EVE you don't seem to like it that much. Maybe you are in the wrong place?
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#433 - 2012-08-08 13:54:41 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:

Some utter crap

Why do you even play EVE? I am asking because from your description of EVE you don't seem to like it that much. Maybe you are in the wrong place?


You somehow interpret my not accepting a delusionally open ended 'I got there first! Where ever that is...' definition of PVP as me not liking EVE? It'd be interesting if only it made sense.
Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2012-08-08 14:08:46 UTC
crap, just when I thought this thread was interesting.......

who dropped the dang nuke on the IQ quality?! jeez.
Lexmana
#435 - 2012-08-08 14:11:32 UTC
Rented wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:

Some utter crap

Why do you even play EVE? I am asking because from your description of EVE you don't seem to like it that much. Maybe you are in the wrong place?


You somehow interpret my not accepting a delusionally open ended 'I got there first! Where ever that is...' definition of PVP as me not liking EVE? It'd be interesting if only it made sense.

From your ranting it looks like you rather play a game where everything was sold and bought via NPC buy and sell order so you wouldn't have to deal with all the market PvP. Guess what, that is not EVE.

Mineral prices, ships and for example ice products are directly affected by PvP in EVE. Sometimes by player cartels such as OTEC that has spiked the price on technetium and Hulks, and sometimes by direct intervention in the belts which tripled the price of oxygen isotopes for a long time. And part of the price increase in minerals is due to hulkageddon. Resources are not unlimited in EVE. If they were what do you think the price of a Hulk would be if there were infinite number of them on the markets?

In EVE you have to adapt to circumstances like those mentioned above and also to direct competition in your market. At least I have to sometimes rethink my plans when I notice that I can't make a profit from selling a specific poduct in a specifik market because someone else has interfered.

You don't seem to appreciate these things. But these are the things that make EVE stand out among MMOs.

So what are you doing in EVE?

Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#436 - 2012-08-08 14:16:40 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:

Some utter crap

Why do you even play EVE? I am asking because from your description of EVE you don't seem to like it that much. Maybe you are in the wrong place?


You somehow interpret my not accepting a delusionally open ended 'I got there first! Where ever that is...' definition of PVP as me not liking EVE? It'd be interesting if only it made sense.

From your ranting it looks like you rather play a game where everything was sold and bought via NPC buy and sell order so you wouldn't have to deal with all the market PvP. Guess what, that is not EVE.

Mineral prices, ships and for example ice products are directly affected by PvP in EVE. Sometimes by player cartels such as OTEC that has spiked the price on technetium and Hulks, and sometimes by direct intervention in the belts which tripled the price of oxygen isotopes for a long time. And part of the price increase in minerals is due to hulkageddon. Resources are not unlimited in EVE. If they were what do you think the price of a Hulk would be if there were infinite number of them on the markets?

In EVE you have to adapt to circumstances like those mentioned above and also to direct competition in your market. At least I have to sometimes rethink my plans when I notice that I can't make a profit from selling a specific poduct in a specifik market because someone else has interfered.

You don't seem to appreciate these things. But these are the things that make EVE stand out among MMOs.

So what are you doing in EVE?



Reading sentences comprised of words to extract the ideas and expressions contained within appears beyond you. I'd recommend you forget everything I've said, except you apparently already have.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#437 - 2012-08-08 14:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rented wrote:


'Competing' for a rock of veldspar is just as meaningfully interactive as .01 isk-ing a market order. You stole those sells from the competition you say? So what! You also stole that veldspar rock from anyone who might've wanted it. Is every auctionhouse in every online game PVP now because you bought that magic sparkly pony before someone else did? In EVE we have a fancy market and can do that in both directions, yay!
Yes its is pvp and very competetive. I enjoy market pvp very much.
Quote:



I've got bad news, resources aren't limited.


Thats why the ice interdictions didn't cause a rise in cost of ice products. Oh wai...
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#438 - 2012-08-08 14:29:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Thats why the ice interdictions didn't cause a rise in cost of ice products. Oh wai...


Confirming Willy Wonkas magically infinite chocolate fountain suddenly become finite for some reason if the Oompa Loompas contract rabies.
Lexmana
#439 - 2012-08-08 14:33:00 UTC
Rented wrote:

Reading sentences comprised of words to extract the ideas and expressions contained within appears beyond you. I'd recommend you forget everything I've said, except you apparently already have.

You essentially claimed that resources are unlimited in EVE and that resource and market PvP is meaningless. Well, that pretty much disqualifies the majority of what EVE has to offer. That is why I asked why you play EVE. Maybe you don't know?
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#440 - 2012-08-08 14:43:48 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Rented wrote:

Reading sentences comprised of words to extract the ideas and expressions contained within appears beyond you. I'd recommend you forget everything I've said, except you apparently already have.

You essentially claimed that resources are unlimited in EVE and that resource and market PvP is meaningless. Well, that pretty much disqualifies the majority of what EVE has to offer. That is why I asked why you play EVE. Maybe you don't know?


A proper response usually comes afterwards, but I suppose if it's provided in advance that's okay too.