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Can we get a ship to bridge between indy's and freighters please
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#41 - 2012-08-07 20:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Infinite Force wrote:

Why? Because "technically" the Orca isn't a single-hold hauler and the JF is way too costly.


So the implications of the Orca being a single hold hauler is that you can't take certain size contracts without a freighter/jump freighter? The implications of the JF being too costly is that they're nerfing Tech and driving the price down? :)

-Liang

Ed: I should also be clear that I think arguments relating to price and training are pretty meaningless. But if there's a legitimate need for a specific range of hauling that's unfulfilled.. sure. I just think the current scaling is not as bad as it's represented here.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#42 - 2012-08-07 20:26:17 UTC
CCP has acknowledged that there is currently no viable way to move rigged BSs. I’m hoping they can address this when bridging the gap. Honestly, I don’t need a whole carrier, and an industrial is paper-thin. The Orca is great, but I have a feeling it is going to get an ORE bay.

(Btw, I don't even want to know what will happen when teiricide hits the Iteron V.)
The Renner
Canadian Operations
#43 - 2012-08-07 20:29:25 UTC
DSTs (bustard, impel etc) should be buffed to 75k-100k cargo space fitted imo, and replace the ridiculous active tanking bonus on them with something useful at the same time.

These ships will then have a purpose, and there would also be a reasonably cost effective way to move a packaged battleship or two around. (750 million for an orca currently being the cheapest option is a bit on the steep side)
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-08-07 20:29:51 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:


The Orca & JF issues are two fold:
1. The Orca is a mining vessel. It is not a hauler (e.g. it does not have a single cargo hold). It has a completely different skill path that a dedicated hauler doesn't need to train for.

and what is stopping you to use it for hauling? It is totally appropriate to use BRAIN in order of choosing your tools...who cares what is written in the description if the ship still does the same...

i.E.
The description of the geddon says that its supposed as a strong shield tank, but I doubt you would fit a shield tank just cause of the description, would you?

shar'ra phone home
Infinite Force
#45 - 2012-08-07 20:55:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Why? Because "technically" the Orca isn't a single-hold hauler and the JF is way too costly.
So the implications of the Orca being a single hold hauler is that you can't take certain size contracts without a freighter/jump freighter? The implications of the JF being too costly is that they're nerfing Tech and driving the price down? :)

-Liang

Even if JF's come down to their previous costs of around 4b, they're still 4 times as expensive for 40% of the hauling capacity of a freighter.

You don't need contracts to move things. Having a "single-hold" Orca-type ship would certainly give you more options when running contracts. You would, however, still need to use the right sized ship for a given contract - you just wouldn't need to use a freighter to move that 150k m3 package.


shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:

The Orca & JF issues are two fold:
1. The Orca is a mining vessel. It is not a hauler (e.g. it does not have a single cargo hold). It has a completely different skill path that a dedicated hauler doesn't need to train for.

and what is stopping you to use it for hauling? It is totally appropriate to use BRAIN in order of choosing your tools...who cares what is written in the description if the ship still does the same...

i.E.
The description of the geddon says that its supposed as a strong shield tank, but I doubt you would fit a shield tank just cause of the description, would you?

No one at anytime has complained about not being able to use the Orca as a hauler. The Orca's problem is that it does not have a hauler skill path - instead you have to train up a bunch of mining skills - above and beyond any hauler skills.

Since your "brain" comment makes zero sense and makes you sound about 15 years old, let me explain your logic --
- By your logic, you would need to train fly a battleship just so you can fit a HAC.

Makes no sense, does it?

If you will make a valid and sound argument, it can be debated.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-08-07 21:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Infinite Force wrote:
1. The Orca is a mining vessel. It is not a hauler

Infinite Force wrote:
No one at anytime has complained about not being able to use the Orca as a hauler.

why monaing that its not a hauler when you know it can be used as a hauler (in wich case it actuallymakes it to a hauler)?

Infinite Force wrote:

Since your "brain" comment makes zero sense and makes you sound about 15 years old, let me explain your logic --
- By your logic, you would need to train fly a battleship just so you can fit a HAC.


it only makes no sense to you because you havent understood it :D

I meant, that even if the description tells you something about mining, it doesnt mean anything about the real purpose of the ship, wich is analog in the case of the geddon. In this case CCP is just expecting to use said "Brain"...i wasnt looking for an offence against your brain or something... Your analogy on the other hand, really does make nu sense and is infact kinda stupid.

fake-edit:
they must have changed the description of the geddon, it acutally used to say something about its extraordinary shields.

shar'ra phone home
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-08-07 22:38:42 UTC
Tape two mammoths together... Also add more engines.... And flames painted on.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#48 - 2012-08-07 22:48:08 UTC
Change Charon to require Caldari Freighter III. Add new ship as follows:

Acheron
Caldari Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level

(Base stats)
No Fittings
No Drones
Structure HP: 53,125
Cargo Capacity: 300,000m3
Mass: 250,000,000kg
Inertia Modifier 0.16x

Armor HP: 20,000
Standard armor resists

Shield HP: 6,000
Shield recharge time: 1,000.00s
Standard shield resists

Max velocity: 90m/sec
Ship Warp Speed: 2.00 AU/sec

So with all Vs, you get 300,000m3, 37.4s align time, 141m/sec speed and 2.0 AU/sec warp speed.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-08-07 23:01:23 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Also, while we are on it, how about something in the 2-3 million M3 range? I am tired of making so many trips to Jita. I would be willing to pay about 5bil ISK for one


such a ship would be capable of moving packaged capitals

nope

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#50 - 2012-08-07 23:04:21 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Also, while we are on it, how about something in the 2-3 million M3 range? I am tired of making so many trips to Jita. I would be willing to pay about 5bil ISK for one


such a ship would be capable of moving packaged capitals

nope


So I'd be able to suicide gank a 5 billion ISK ship and have a chance at a dread dropping?

Coooooooollll.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Infinite Force
#51 - 2012-08-07 23:20:34 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
1. The Orca is a mining vessel. It is not a hauler

Infinite Force wrote:
No one at anytime has complained about not being able to use the Orca as a hauler.

why monaing that its not a hauler when you know it can be used as a hauler (in wich case it actuallymakes it to a hauler)?

Infinite Force wrote:

Since your "brain" comment makes zero sense and makes you sound about 15 years old, let me explain your logic --
- By your logic, you would need to train fly a battleship just so you can fit a HAC.


it only makes no sense to you because you havent understood it :D

I meant, that even if the description tells you something about mining, it doesnt mean anything about the real purpose of the ship, wich is analog in the case of the geddon. In this case CCP is just expecting to use said "Brain"...i wasnt looking for an offence against your brain or something... Your analogy on the other hand, really does make nu sense and is infact kinda stupid.

fake-edit:
they must have changed the description of the geddon, it acutally used to say something about its extraordinary shields.

No offence taken.

The biggest issue here is that there is no "true" hauler between the Itty sizes (30k - 40k m3) and a freighter (850k+).

The Orca is strictly an ad-hoc throw in .. and that's only if you've taken the time to skill for it.

(And yes, my analogy wasn't supposed to make any sense.)

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Infinite Force
#52 - 2012-08-07 23:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Paikis wrote:
Change Charon to require Caldari Freighter III. Add new ship as follows:

Acheron
Caldari Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level

(Base stats)
No Fittings
No Drones
Structure HP: 53,125
Cargo Capacity: 300,000m3
Mass: 250,000,000kg
Inertia Modifier 0.16x

Armor HP: 20,000
Standard armor resists

Shield HP: 6,000
Shield recharge time: 1,000.00s
Standard shield resists

Max velocity: 90m/sec
Ship Warp Speed: 2.00 AU/sec

So with all Vs, you get 300,000m3, 37.4s align time, 141m/sec speed and 2.0 AU/sec warp speed.

If I read this correctly, you are proposing the "mini-freighter" to require the [Racial] Freighter skill at 1. Regular freighters would then require the [Racial] Freighter skill at 3.

I like that idea.

You could also scale the cargo / speed (etc.) along with the Freighters' skill level.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#53 - 2012-08-07 23:30:19 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
If I read this correctly, you are proposing the "mini-freighter" to require the [Racial] Freighter skill at 1. Regular freighters would then require the [Racial] Freighter skill at 3.

I like that idea.

You could also scale the cargo / speed (etc.) along with the Freighters' skill level.


You read that correctly. i was going to give it 5% cargo per level but couldn't be bothered doing the math to have it finish at 300,000m3.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-08-08 00:03:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Also, while we are on it, how about something in the 2-3 million M3 range? I am tired of making so many trips to Jita. I would be willing to pay about 5bil ISK for one


such a ship would be capable of moving packaged capitals

nope


So I'd be able to suicide gank a 5 billion ISK ship and have a chance at a dread dropping?

Coooooooollll.

-Liang



That would be cool, but from an "in-game realism" perspective it would be impractical. Freighters are already at the upper end of ships that can fit through jump gates, something larger probably (sh/w)ouldn't fit through them.
Tassian Marrix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-08-08 06:52:37 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
A new ship type in between would obsolete indys. Not sure if anyone here ever played it, but there’s an awesome sim game called transport tycoon deluxe that has a fancy solution. (there’s an open source version if you want to try it out :p)

In this game, ships (trains, freight ships, trucks) can be retrofitted to specialize them in one specific type of cargo. The idea would be to allow the basic indy hull to carry anything with the current cargo hold (just like it is now), or specialize on one specific type of cargo, and get a bonus to the hold. (Using a rig, or one of those subsystem slots that only t3 gets to use) that way the basic hull is versatile while a specialized can fit more of that specific item.

The idea is to allow a ship like the iteronV that can only move 3 capital armor plates and some other random stuff, specialize on that type of cargo and move eight or more plates, but be restricted only to that type of cargo (capital components) unless it retrofits again for something else.

That way we could allow current ships to be WAY more efficient at their job, having an iteron V move an assembled and rigged battleship is possible while not letting them obsolete freighters.

This would ofc need a small buff to current indy ehp... or make this change not available on t1 indys and only on t2 blockade runners. (Pretty useless ships as they are now.)




I wonder if they could do this with rigs? Maybe like "Increase cargo hold by +300% but you may only place (insert item type here) in the cargo hold" Calibration cost: 250. That would specialize the ship and they could even make it like mining ships where if you decide to remove the rig you cannot undock or warp till the cargo hold is under the new limit.
Serina Tsukaya
Dropbears Anonymous
Brave Collective
#56 - 2012-08-08 16:48:08 UTC
There's also the issue of the large gap in price from the t1 industrial ships to the freighters, having something reasonable cost wise in the middle wouldn't be too bad of an idea.
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