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(As Promised) Why Statistics Are Pseudoscience

Author
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#121 - 2012-08-07 17:32:11 UTC
A streak is just a simple way of referencing any repeating pattern for any long duration. Such things do exist.

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Aesheera
Doomheim
#122 - 2012-08-07 17:51:16 UTC
Ohhh Eternum you old dog, always loving the good conversations ♥

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-08-07 17:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
A streak is just a simple way of referencing any repeating pattern for any long duration. Such things do exist.


it does not have to be repeating, it just an unbroken series of events.

i guess eg. wining every hand can be seen as a repeating pattern.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-08-07 18:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
This one is for Akita:



[7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] ...[ ]

The odds of getting 7 heads in 7 flips is 2^7 of 1:128
Drawn out there are only TWO spaces in which that streak can inhabit if given 8 places.




Version 1. [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] ...[ ]
Version 2. [ ]..[7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7] [7]

So the odds of a streak of 7 heads in a row occurring are actually 2:256 (or) .00781



Please explain why your math is correct at 3:256 and my graphical representation is wrong at 2:256. Because by this representation 2^20 tries has a probability of 11:1048576 (or) .00001 coming up 7 heads in a row and without all of the insane math.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#125 - 2012-08-07 18:17:57 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
A streak is just a simple way of referencing any repeating pattern for any long duration. Such things do exist.

As the previous post suggests, what constitutes a pattern is largely subjective.

For example:

10001 11111
10001 00100
11111 00100
10001 00100
10001 11111

If a random generator produced the above content, an observer would probably quickly notice that it says "HI". As far as the machine stringing the bits together is concerned, that was no more likely than any other combination of the same length. But because we see something unique in it, we consider it special or significant. On some other planet,

00111 01011
01110 11011
11100 01110

Might mean the same thing. To us, it's just pseudorandom stuff, easily lost amidst all the other random output. It's only when we recognize something that we pay attention to its occurrence.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#126 - 2012-08-07 18:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Please explain why your math is correct at 3:256 and my graphical representation is wrong at 2:256.

You forgot 8 heads in a row. That contains a 7 heads streak. You need to take that one into account too.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Because by this representation 2^20 tries has a probability of 11:1048576


11111110000000000000
11111110000000000001
11111110000000000010
11111110000000000011
....
11111111111111111101
11111111111111111110
11111111111111111111

= 2^13 = 8192 combinations out of the possible 2^20 total that START with 7 heads and contain at least 7 heads in a row somewhere

01111111000000000000
01111111000000000001
01111111000000000010
01111111000000000011
....
01111111111111111101
01111111111111111110
01111111111111111111

= 2^12 = 4096 combinations out of the possible 2^20 total that START with 1 tails and 7 heads and contain at least 7 heads in a row somewhere

and so on and so forth

= over 40k total that contain at least 7 heads in a row somewhere inside out of all 2^20 possible combinations.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-08-07 18:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
A streak is just a simple way of referencing any repeating pattern for any long duration. Such things do exist.

As the previous post suggests, what constitutes a pattern is largely subjective.

For example:

10001 11111
10001 00100
11111 00100
10001 00100
10001 11111

If a random generator produced the above content, an observer would probably quickly notice that it says "HI". As far as the machine stringing the bits together is concerned, that was no more likely than any other combination of the same length. But because we see something unique in it, we consider it special or significant. On some other planet,

00111 01011
01110 11011
11100 01110

Might mean the same thing. To us, it's just pseudorandom stuff, easily lost amidst all the other random output. It's only when we recognize something that we pay attention to its occurrence.



Those are simple and short patterns mr Floppie. This is about long repetitious events being consistently generated from random events. Like: 1111111111111111111^2 or 00000000000000000000^2 or 101010101010101010^2 or 11001100110011001100^2 or 111000111000111000111000^2

For protracted periods of time (look up what protracted means)

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#128 - 2012-08-07 18:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Akita T wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Please explain why your math is correct at 3:256 and my graphical representation is wrong at 2:256.

You forgot 8 heads in a row. That contains a 7 heads streak. You need to take that one into account too.



Ah ha!


But this is about only a streak of 7 heads in a row occurring only once. To say that it occurred twice is to pollute the idea. You would have to stack the probabilities like

2:256 (for just 7 heads)
1:256 (for 8 heads)

Or it will breed confusion. Why should we count a streak of 8 as a steak of 7? Why should we count a streak of 30 as so many steaks of 7? If it happened 30 times then it happened more then seven.

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#129 - 2012-08-07 18:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ah ha! But this is about only a streak of 7 heads in a row occurring only once.

Nope.
It's about the number of possible combinations that INCLUDE at least one streak of at least 7 heads anywhere within.
Whether that turns into a more-than-7-heads streak or multiple separate 7-heads streaks is completely irrelevant. You still got the 7 heads you were looking for within that series of tosses. You can't discard that.

Or do you want to tell me that if I got a streak of 8 or more heads in a certain trial run I somehow miraculously FAILED to get a 7 heads streak anywhere in that exact trial run ?
That's ludicrous beyond belief.
You HAVE to include those too.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-08-07 18:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Maybe but this can probably be filed under semantics.


because the odds of a streak of 7 popping up once (not 2,3...n times) in a set of 20 flips is:

7-20 = 13 + 1

Or 14:10,485,796 (or) .000001


How U Like Me Now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr41GraqGgs&feature=related

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#131 - 2012-08-07 18:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
There's 2^20 = 1,048,576 possible combinations to throw a coin 20 times.

The following is ONE of those 1,048,576 possible combinations : 01011111111110110101

Answer a simple YES/NO question : DID I MANAGE TO GET 7 HEADS IN A ROW DURING THAT PARTICULAR SET OF 20 THROWS ?

...

It's really simple, dude.
If you were sitting next to me and ringing a gong as soon as I got 7 heads in a row, would you ring that gong for that sequence ?

...

Here's a hint : 01011111111110110101
Yes, yes I did manage to get 7 heads in a row.
I actually managed to get 10 heads in a row. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that I did manage to get 7 heads in a row.

Here's ANOTHER of those 1,048,576 possible combinations : 111111110011111111
Did I manage to get 7 heads in a row ? YES I DID.
I actually managed to get 8 heads in a row, twice. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that I did manage to get 7 heads in a row.

Now count all the combinations out of those 1,048,576 possible in which I do manage to get 7 heads in a row.
You'll get more than 40k of them.
The combined chance to get 7 heads in a row in 20 throws is over 3.9%.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-08-07 18:59:20 UTC
In order to calculate it your way (I think)

(7-7) + 1 = 1
(7-8) + 1 = 2
(7-9) + 1 = 3
……………
(7-20) + 1 = 14

For a total of 105 distinctive combinations of 7 within a grouping of 20.

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#133 - 2012-08-07 19:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Nope. Try again. Over 40k. And the first 12+k are even spelled out in post #126. Just go back up this very page and read.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#134 - 2012-08-07 19:08:42 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Nope. Try again. Over 40k. And the first 12+k are even spelled out in post #126. Just go back up this very page and read.



Well I will have to take your word for it and do more reading. But I just don't see why someone would want to break it down this way. You would be much better of just representing each probability on it's own for a streak of any number.

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#135 - 2012-08-07 19:17:39 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
But I just don't see why someone would want to break it down this way.

If I have 1,048,576 pieces of paper, on over 40k of them the word "SUCCESS" is written somewhere, while the rest have "NOPE" written on them somewhere, what's the chance to randomly pull out a paper which says "SUCCESS" on it ?
Here's a hint, it's 40+k/1,048,576 ~= 3.9+% chance to pull a paper that says "SUCCESS".

Those 1+ million papers are all the possible combinations of 20 throws of a coin, each paper has a different combination of 20 throws, and all possible combinations are written exactly ONCE.
Those 40+k papers that have "SUCCESS" written on them somewhere alongside the 20-throw combination are the ones for which the corresponding combination contains 7 heads in a row somewhere inside.

Pulling a paper at random is exactly the same as making that particular set of throws.
If the paper says "SUCCESS" on it, it means there is a 7 head streak present on the paper.
Hence, ~3.9+% chance to get 7 heads in a row in 20 throws.

VERY SIMPLE. All you had to do was count.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#136 - 2012-08-07 19:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Still not convinced ?
Let's reduce it to more manageable levels.

3 throws.
8 possible combinations = 8 pieces of paper.
Looking for a 2 heads streak.

Paper 1 : 000 (NOPE)
Paper 2 : 001 (NOPE)
Paper 3 : 010 (NOPE)
Paper 4 : 011 (SUCCESS)
Paper 5 : 100 (NOPE)
Paper 6 : 101 (NOPE)
Paper 7 : 110 (SUCCESS)
Paper 8 : 111 (SUCCESS)

Chance to get a 2 heads streak in 3 throws ?
3:8
Or 37.5%.
Same thing.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#137 - 2012-08-07 19:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
I would prefer not to stray to far away from the OP. So I will just respond and then get back to the point at hand (because we were making some progress).


If you have randomly generated 7 in a row you have achieved something that had a certain probability.
If you have randomly generated 8 you have achieved something that had a smaller probability.
If 8... and continue on forever.



You CAN do it the way that you are saying, but what is the point? What intrinsic value does NOT distinguishing the difference between 7 and 8 have when both outcomes have a distinctly different probability of occurring? It may compute and it may be a fun academic exercise but it does not make any sense.

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#138 - 2012-08-07 19:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You CAN do it the way that you are saying, but what is the point?

The point is that you should read the above two posts again.

Sit by me and ring a gong whenever I hit 7 heads.
Will you have rung the gong if I managed to get 8 heads ?
Yes, you would have. End of story.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#139 - 2012-08-07 19:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Let's test the ABSURDITY of your approach with a PRACTICAL example.

Tell me, in your opinion, what is the chance to get a streak of 2 heads when you make 200 throws ?
According to your previously stated approach you took for the 7head-20throw case, it should be 198 : 2^200 = almost zero.

Now throw a coin 200 times and tell me you didn't manage to get at least 2 heads in a row at least once.
What do you know, something your math says should almost never happen manages to happen almost always.
Obviously your approach is flawed.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#140 - 2012-08-07 20:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Those are simple and short patterns mr Floppie. This is about long repetitious events being consistently generated from random events. Like: 1111111111111111111^2 or 00000000000000000000^2 or 101010101010101010^2 or 11001100110011001100^2 or 111000111000111000111000^2


What's amusing about this is that you think the sequence of a specific thousand bits is significant among a billion billion billion of them. At a scale like that, a thousand 1s in a row is insubstantial. Also...you do understand the concept of examples, right?

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
(look up what protracted means)


Roll Your condescension fails to impress me.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.