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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#301 - 2012-08-07 17:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Anslo wrote:
I love how people continue to assume that more subscriptions=more diversity in the player base.
We're talking about being alive, which is what the subscription numbers amply show.

Quote:
Facts? Oh you mean those numbers twisted into the same cookie cutter argument used god knows how many times?
No. Read the paragraph you responded to. It shouldn't be hard. It consisted of four statements (that you didn't respond to) and a question (that you failed to answer). It was also follow by two rhetoric figures in the form of comparisons.

Quote:
OK. Recovery and Relaxation Study.Pros and Cons. Therapy.
“While some games leave us whit knuckled, others can be very relaxing. And at their heart, games are about mastery, developing new skills, or acquiring new knowledge.” So game is not necessarily equivalent to relaxation. The second link offers no opinion on relaxation at all and doesn't qualify as scientific to begin with, and the third link is all about how games are used for non-relaxation purposes. So, much like I said then…

Quote:
I wouldn't call a few articles in the Tech section of BBC unparalleled mass-media coverage.
It is when what they're talking about there (and in other articles) describe events in-game rather than events surrounding the company and its business.

Oh and: if you add the word “heist” to your search, you'll have better luck.

Quote:
See previous posts. And I wouldn't call this recovering. We never recovered from 2011, and the graph is trending down.
The graph is trending down since fanfest, when the annual spring slump set in, when the bot bannings picked up, when the sizzle from Crucible had died down. But you missed the crucial point: what was it that caused the 2011 crash? A focus on PvE content, which is inherently short-lived in terms of its draw, and a long-standing abandonment of the core (PvP) gameplay in favour of an attempt to attract a larger and more mainstream audience. They've already dipped the toes in the water you're asking them to dive into, and the result was very chilling…
Jim Era
#302 - 2012-08-07 17:33:08 UTC
Honestly, I wonder if we could form a large enough group of people, who don't necessarily have the same train of thought, but at least the same end goal~to improve EVE~I bet we could accomplish much more than all of this futile bickering.

Wat™
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2012-08-07 17:36:00 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
Honestly, I wonder if we could form a large enough group of people, who don't necessarily have the same train of thought, but at least the same end goal~to improve EVE~I bet we could accomplish much more than all of this futile bickering.


Never! Without all this edrama to keep me distracted I might actually have to do...

*gulp*

WORK!

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Kohrg
IceWalkers Ltd.
#304 - 2012-08-07 17:43:12 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Anslo wrote:
...



Richard and Tippia do have a point that this IS primarily a PvP game.. hell i don't pvp in any other MMO but I play eve to PVP. all my PvE activities are just for the purpose of funding my PvP.

anyway.. as i was saying - they have a point in that this is a PvP game. it will always be PvP centric. I'm for making the PvE more entertaining/harder/more cooperative to bring in players in - the "farms and fields" design initiatives. I supported the EHP buffing of the barges because of the cost vs reward ratio on suiciding barges was entirely out of whack.

However i think blaming PvPers in general for problems with the game is just wrong - as it is a pvp game. Gankbears are a problem, not all PvPers are gankbears.


I guess one of the points that seems to be overlooked or better clarified is "What is PvP?" Is it, for example, 2 people who have trained in combat skills going toe to toe to see which one can use those skills the best in order to claim victory or is it 6 people sneaking up behind ONE person - hitting him in head and then stealing his wallet? End result is the same, someone won and someone lost - but the claim that they are the same thing seems to be a constant in this thread by people complaining about Concord and high sec.

I 100% agree that the entire game is some sort of competition, whether you are in high sec or not. There are resources, everyone competes for them - mineral, market or territory, but the constant equalization of a gank (shooting something that won't shoot back or barely shoots back) to a 1 v 1 fight "show of skill" is what I don't see clearly defined.

1v1 is like knights in medieval times going at it - that is true PvP in my opinion. Clubbing a old person and then stealing their Social Security check is just assault and petty theft and that is why people claim PvPers are running EVE. It is the unfortunate bundling of any act of shooting another player being called PvP. I guess it all comes down to the kind of PvPer you are.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#305 - 2012-08-07 17:43:25 UTC
Right on brother. Make Eve more lethal.

Can I have your stuff? Smile

.
Anslo
Scope Works
#306 - 2012-08-07 17:43:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:


1) We're talking about being alive, which is what the subscription numbers amply show.

2) No. Read the paragraph you responded to. It shouldn't be hard. It consisted of four statements (that you didn't respond to) and a question (that you failed to answer). It was also follow by two rhetoric figures in the form of comparisons.

3) “While some games leave us whit knuckled, others can be very relaxing. And at their heart, games are about mastery, developing new skills, or acquiring new knowledge.” So game is not necessarily equivalent to relaxation. The second link offers no opinion on relaxation at all and doesn't qualify as scientific to begin with, and the third link is all about how games are used for non-relaxation purposes. So, much like I said then…

4) It is when what they're talking about there (and in other articles) describe events in-game rather than events surrounding the company and its business.

5) The graph is trending down since fanfest, when the annual spring slump set in, when the bot bannings picked up, when the sizzle from Crucible had died down. But you missed the crucial point: what was it that caused the 2011 crash? A focus on PvE content, which is inherently short-lived in terms of its draw, and a long-standing abandonment of the core (PvP) gameplay in favour of an attempt to attract a larger and more mainstream audience. They've already dipped the toes in the water you're asking them to dive into, and the result was very chilling…


1) No, we're not talking about just being a live and active subscriptions. As I've been saying for more than an hour now, it's about an active player base and how it interacts. This thread is just a shining example of how we as a community are asshat antagonists.

2) I see no evidence of these unanswered issues. So far I've been numbering your arguments point for point and taking them head on.

3)The first link argument is you simply twisting words in your favor as was mentioned before by another user. Mastery, skills and knowledge acquisition, I'm sure, aren't the major reasons people play eve. If you'd like I'd be happy to do a poll on the forums just to show you. Hell I'm sure polls have already been executed and can be found with research. The second link...let's see, games can be "A great social activity, whether playing some games at a party or playing games online." This is normally something relaxing or enjoyable. "They are fun!" Well? While minor points, they're points. Once again, you twist words. As for the third article, "Although a great deal of media attention has been given to the negative effects of playing video games, relatively less attention has been paid to the positive effects of engaging in this activity. Video games in health care provide ample examples of innovative ways to use existing commercial games for health improvement or surgical training." Health improvement, therapy, relaxation. You're wrong.

4) And what do those event's constitute? Black mail, scams, meta-gaming etc. When was the last time something that wasn't executed simply to screw someone over made the news? Also, it only makes news because this insane community takes this game so seriously as to let it impact their real lives.

5) I love how you think the NEX store is a focus on PvE content. That's not PvE, that was greed plain and simple. If the dip was caused due to WiS being fully release, a buff to missioning, comet mining, PI, Walking in Ships, City exploration/building, lore development and back story development (like the eve gate reopening), then I'd concede. But it didn't.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#307 - 2012-08-07 17:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
it depends on how you define skill, you define skill as general competency. I define skill as quick reflexes, accuracy, use of terrain, motion prediction, map awareness, game sense and actions per minute, all of which are totally irreleveant in EVE gameplay.


Oh man you're so wrong here that I don't know where to start


its relatively speaking of course. Other games are just require a lot more to the point you could comparatively say that EVE requires no skill. I guess you could argue that eve employs the use of your spreadsheet skills but that isn't something most competitive gamers care to be proud of. Game know-how is not a skill, its something anyone with a normally functioning brain can achieve.

The steep learning curve comes from the amount of knowledge that is required for a player to not make mistakes. Since this knowledge takes time to accumulate, d-bags are able to prey on those who aren't aware of things like margin trading scams. The d-bags beat their chest and claim superiority and that their victims are stupid, when really, the victim just did not know. There was no lack of skill or superior skill for an outcome. This is the carebear game you play, deal with it and stop crying.
Lexmana
#308 - 2012-08-07 17:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Nerf Burger wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
it depends on how you define skill, you define skill as general competency. I define skill as quick reflexes, accuracy, use of terrain, motion prediction, map awareness, game sense and actions per minute, all of which are totally irreleveant in EVE gameplay.


Oh man you're so wrong here that I don't know where to start


its relatively speaking of course. Other games are just require a lot more to the point you could comparatively say that EVE requires no skill. I guess you could argue that eve employs the use of your spreadsheet skills but that isn't something most competitive gamers care to be proud of. Game know-how is not a skill, its something anyone with a normally functioning brain can achieve.

Ohh my. First I though you were just a troll. But now I start to think you actually don't know better. Tell me again why we should listen to some newb in a NPC corp? Ignorance is blizz right?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#309 - 2012-08-07 17:51:48 UTC
Anslo wrote:


4) And what do those event's constitute? Black mail, scams, meta-gaming etc. When was the last time something that wasn't executed simply to screw someone over made the news? Also, it only makes news because this insane community takes this game so seriously as to let it impact their real lives.



The guy payed off his morgage.

As for the rest, welcome the newspapers 500 years ago. Still the fact is that no other MMO has this kind of headline grabbing gameplay. Which is why most of us are playing EVE.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#310 - 2012-08-07 17:51:51 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
it depends on how you define skill, you define skill as general competency. I define skill as quick reflexes, accuracy, use of terrain, motion prediction, map awareness, game sense and actions per minute, all of which are totally irreleveant in EVE gameplay.


Oh man you're so wrong here that I don't know where to start


its relatively speaking of course. Other games are just require a lot more to the point you could comparatively say that EVE requires no skill. I guess you could argue that eve employs the use of your spreadsheet skills but that isn't something most competitive gamers care to be proud of. Game know-how is not a skill, its something anyone with a normally functioning brain can achieve.


yeah you should tell me more about how your vast experience with so many aspects of this game has led you to the conclusion that "eve requires no skill"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#311 - 2012-08-07 17:53:38 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:

its relatively speaking of course. Other games are just require a lot more to the point you could comparatively say that EVE requires no skill. I guess you could argue that eve employs the use of your spreadsheet skills but that isn't something most competitive gamers care to be proud of. Game know-how is not a skill, its something anyone with a normally functioning brain can achieve.

The steep learning curve comes from the amount of knowledge that is required for a player to not make mistakes. Since this knowledge takes time to accumulate, d-bags are able to prey on those who aren't aware of things like margin trading scams. The d-bags beat their chest and claim superiority and that their victims are stupid, when really, the victim just did not know. There was no lack of skill or superior skill for an outcome. This is the carebear game you play, deal with it and stop crying.


Very well, I challange you to do the things I do in megathrons. Given that it takes no skill you should not have any issues.
Anslo
Scope Works
#312 - 2012-08-07 17:56:15 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
yeah you should tell me more about how your vast experience with so many aspects of this game has led you to the conclusion that "eve requires no skill"


baltec1 wrote:
Very well, I challange you to do the things I do in megathrons. Given that it takes no skill you should not have any issues.


Train for years in just pvp by clicking train every couple days.
Look up fitting.
Load fitting.
Target ship.
Press F1.
Orbit.
If loosing, call in blob.
What did I miss?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#313 - 2012-08-07 17:57:47 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
yeah you should tell me more about how your vast experience with so many aspects of this game has led you to the conclusion that "eve requires no skill"


baltec1 wrote:
Very well, I challange you to do the things I do in megathrons. Given that it takes no skill you should not have any issues.


Train for years in just pvp by clicking train every couple days.
Look up fitting.
Load fitting.
Target ship.
Press F1.
Orbit.
If loosing, call in blob.
What did I miss?


You died when you hit orbit.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#314 - 2012-08-07 17:59:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
We're talking about being alive, which is what the subscription numbers amply show.


Yep, if one person held 500K subs and no one else played at all, the game would be even more alive and well than it is now by your standard.

Well, alive at least. Which is why you deliberately restrict the discussion.
Phytor
Omega Foundry Unit
Southern Legion Alliance
#315 - 2012-08-07 17:59:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
yeah you should tell me more about how your vast experience with so many aspects of this game has led you to the conclusion that "eve requires no skill"


baltec1 wrote:
Very well, I challange you to do the things I do in megathrons. Given that it takes no skill you should not have any issues.


Train for years in just pvp by clicking train every couple days.
Look up fitting.
Load fitting.
Target ship.
Press F1.
Orbit.
If loosing, call in blob.
What did I miss?


You died when you hit orbit.


+1 for that answer
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#316 - 2012-08-07 18:01:13 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Tippia wrote:
We're talking about being alive, which is what the subscription numbers amply show.


Yep, if one person held 500K subs and no one else played at all, the game would be even more alive and well than it is now by your standard.

Well, alive at least. Which is why you deliberately restrict the discussion.


EVE is growing while the new TOR MMO has bled 700k subs in less than 6 months. Which is heathier?
Attica
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2012-08-07 18:01:23 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
What's changed in 8 years that makes Eve less dangerous? Is it mechanics, or is it player behavior?


Let's see:

Instakilling, permajamming and instaneuting CONCORD, halving of CONCORD response times, removal of insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD, HP buff to all ships which was supposed to "increase the length of fights" but only served to make ships much safer in hisec, the ability to set stations as autopilot destinations

There's more than that too!


Hey don't look at me I only shoot stuff that can shoot back. Shocked
Uhmm, ok I shot a hauler once on my other account. But only once!

If you overdo it, you can expect measurements to be taken. No one even CCP denies your suicide killings but when you make it so that it puts off other players in such a way it hurts CCP's wallet, what do you expect?

All of the above where not implemented by just occasional events. Like (legal) drugs, use them with moderation. But in EVE some people just don't know when to stop or give it a rest. Hulkageddon was great, what's now going on is just unsubstantiated hate or group behavior clubbing seal baby's dead just because they can, and profit from it.

I bet you if some alliance(s) would be burning Jita for month's and month's, CCP has to act.
Whimper what you want, the relentless action of a few are the sole reason why your beloved EVE is getting less dangerous.
I don't like it myself but it makes sense from CCP's point of view.

Cept for the tears of some in high sec why not stick largely to low sec and null to crack each others skulls? Not saying high sec should be save. Never it should be that. But if some people keep turning high sec into low sec, don't be surprised if you see more of the above quoted nerfs in place.



I am leaving this thread now, maybe :), you sir have perfectly stated all I could have hoped to convey. Still I realise that the gankers wont see it your way, rose colored glasses make unbiased viewing quite impossible. 10/10 for your unbiased take on why things are headed where they are headed.

Pirate tears are yummier than carebear tears for they come from the deeper well of anguish.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#318 - 2012-08-07 18:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
it depends on how you define skill, you define skill as general competency. I define skill as quick reflexes, accuracy, use of terrain, motion prediction, map awareness, game sense and actions per minute, all of which are totally irreleveant in EVE gameplay.


Oh man you're so wrong here that I don't know where to start


its relatively speaking of course. Other games are just require a lot more to the point you could comparatively say that EVE requires no skill. I guess you could argue that eve employs the use of your spreadsheet skills but that isn't something most competitive gamers care to be proud of. Game know-how is not a skill, its something anyone with a normally functioning brain can achieve.


yeah you should tell me more about how your vast experience with so many aspects of this game has led you to the conclusion that "eve requires no skill"


you should read my edit. btw, I've been dabbling in EVE for 2+ years now. I like a challenge and am working towards my own solo wormhole ops. I never thought i'd play an mmo without some decent pvp combat but here I am.

i have played competitive games for many years and I know what skill in a game is vs knowledge. My favorite games are UO, Darkfall, Dark Reign, AoE3, SC2, Frozen Synapse and the only non-competitive games I like are the old RPGs made by black Isle, baldurs gate, fallout, planescape: torment. I like eve for its depth and complexity and the stuff that makes you think, the same thing that draws me to black isles games, but i'm not that intersted in the pvp because I know its more about paper rock scissors and numbers than skill. I quit WoW because I was tired of losing 2+v1 to inferior players. This is the same reason I have little interest in EVE pvp.

Also, I can play this game on a pvp-competitive level, entirely with my mouse. How many "pvp" games allow you to do that? O right, zero.

Sorry for you babies that skill ceiling got raised a few inches off the floor but your tears are so delicious.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#319 - 2012-08-07 18:04:33 UTC
Attica wrote:


I am leaving this thread now, maybe :), you sir have perfectly stated all I could have hoped to convey. Still I realise that the gankers wont see it your way, rose colored glasses make unbiased viewing quite impossible. 10/10 for your unbiased take on why things are headed where they are headed.


You do realise that high sec has neven been safer than right now right?

If you want to see bad you should have been around for M0o
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#320 - 2012-08-07 18:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
baltec1 wrote:
Attica wrote:


I am leaving this thread now, maybe :), you sir have perfectly stated all I could have hoped to convey. Still I realise that the gankers wont see it your way, rose colored glasses make unbiased viewing quite impossible. 10/10 for your unbiased take on why things are headed where they are headed.


You do realise that high sec has neven been safer than right now right?

If you want to see bad you should have been around for M0o


the buff to dessys, implementation of suicide cruisers that can fit oversized weapons and what people are calling "perma-hulkaggedon", *snip*


EDIT: Personal attacks removed. They have no place in a conversation and do nothing but drag it down in to the gutter. Please post responsibly in future - ISD Type40.