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Eve learning curve and people complaining of dumbing down
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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-08-07 11:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
dexington wrote:
If you want to kill someone in hi-sec you play by their rules, if they stay in hi-sec and remain in a npc corp they have taken active measures to protect them self. Still even if you use the rules of the game to you advantage, you are not 100% safe, you can't just fill a T1 industrial with 10B cargo and fly to jita.

There is a difference between not being able to gank players, and being able to gank anyone at any time.


lmao that's not an "active measure"

an active measure is using a scout, a ship more suitable than a goddamn badger to haul 10b in cargo and not autopiloting like an idiot

and yes, if some idiot is flying a badger with 10b in cargo, he should be robbed blind with his cargo flown by a smarter, more competent person to jita for sale


So now youre saying "proper gameplay" requires you to have scout alts and armored-to-teeth combat ships manually piloting through high-security space? Why? Because the mighty goonscrub wants it this way?

If there is an autopilot function in the game, its legit to use it. If there is a badger hauler in the game, its legit to use it.

How come youre so concerned with newbies in high-sec? Youre big mouthed Delve e-peen fest didnt go so well? Insecure much? Show us on a doll where the girls never touch you.


"I don't want to play the game abloobloobloo"

please stop using "newbies" as a euphemism for "horrible risk-averse carebears" or for "idiots"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#22 - 2012-08-07 11:11:57 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
nobody's complaining about the game being "dumbed down"

people are unhappy, however, about hisec slowly being turned into a consensual PvP-only "safe area"
and? if u want pvp, invade other regions, keep ur damn noses out of high sec
Why should they when highsec is a pvp region too?

Quote:
stop trying to force high sec players to pvp non stop when they have no interest in it
If they have no interest in it, they shouldn't undock.


That does't fly, that same old excuse has been used non stop by pvpers, eve is not just about pvp, then sooner u realise it the better

NULL SEC AND LOW SEC is big enough for all of you to pvp in non stop, get a gang, go into another region and pick a fight, you dont, why? because its not easy. You want safety in kills and stations to fall back to

Real pvpers dont do that and the bc kb sheet shows the real pvpers from the cowards who need empire stations to hide in soon as the enemy fights back

You want high sec to kill expensive ships and kill noobs to boost your kill stats, not because it has any real meaning behind it

dont play the *dont undock, eve is pvp* crap, because its not just pvp otherwise we wouldnt need industry and ccp would just seed all ships and mods on the market for set prices, wh's wouldnt exist and neither would starbases for moon mining

Get over yourselfs



Oh ffs, stop it with this already. Roll If you can't see why everyone needs to be exposed to non consensual pvp for the the game to work, you must have a learning disability.

How hard is it to understand that if ANYONE protected from any possibility of pvp while they are being industrials or whatever else is simply god mode? Really? Because you "don't like it" or "prefer to do only whatever" Lol Daaaayum Ugh
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-08-07 11:12:37 UTC
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
So now youre saying "proper gameplay" requires you to have scout alts and armored-to-teeth combat ships manually piloting through high-security space?
No. He's saying that it requires being mindful of your environment. If you're going to expose a huge amount of valuable cargo to an inherently hostile environment, for instance, you should employ measures to safeguard that cargo and/or reduce the hostility of the environment. Another way would be to realise that you don't quite have the assets to do so and therefore choose a different methodology of getting the cargo to where it needs to be (e.g. doing multiple runs, or hiring help).

Quote:
If there is an autopilot function in the game, its legit to use it.
It is legit.You're not going to be banned for using the auto-pilot. You are, however, choosing to expose your cargo more than you have to, and you only have yourself to blame for this choice. It's legit in the same way as armour-tanking a Drake is legit: an available option, but really really dumb.

Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Its not really a magic area, but rather an area intended to be safer for the direct benefit of ensuring an economy exists to feed the rest of the games primary activity which is PvP.
Funnily enough, PvP is the primary activity in highsec as well.

Quote:
If High Sec wasn't safer PvP would be literly impossible anywhere because in part the largest population of Eve (the majority) are people livining in High Sec avoiding PvP participating in creating the economy that makes PvP everywhere else possible.
You're going to have to pull out some sources for this assertion, I'm afraid.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#24 - 2012-08-07 11:13:55 UTC
Quote:
Funnily enough, PvP is the primary activity in highsec as well.


Hence the patches to curve just that. See now we are connecting things, funny how that works.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-08-07 11:14:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It is legit.You're not going to be banned for using the auto-pilot. You are, however, choosing to expose your cargo more than you have to, and you only have yourself to blame for this choice. It's legit in the same way as armour-tanking a Drake is legit: an available option, but really really dumb.


no you see my maelstrom has 3 launcher slots, i'll be damned if you criticize me for fitting rockets on it (to hit small ships, you see)

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-08-07 11:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Hence the patches to curve just that.
You mean “curb”?
Yeah, no. They're not really doing that.

Largely because it would make the game collapse.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-08-07 11:18:40 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
Funnily enough, PvP is the primary activity in highsec as well.


Hence the patches to curve just that. See now we are connecting things, funny how that works.


PvP doesn't just mean "shooting somebody's ship" fyi

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-08-07 11:21:38 UTC
also since hisec should be safe from all nonconsensual PvP I guess the risk/reward balance should be looked at, i.e. removing hisec incursions, l4s and exploration sites

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
RAP ACTION HERO
#29 - 2012-08-07 11:22:07 UTC
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
dexington wrote:
If you want to kill someone in hi-sec you play by their rules, if they stay in hi-sec and remain in a npc corp they have taken active measures to protect them self. Still even if you use the rules of the game to you advantage, you are not 100% safe, you can't just fill a T1 industrial with 10B cargo and fly to jita.

There is a difference between not being able to gank players, and being able to gank anyone at any time.


lmao that's not an "active measure"

an active measure is using a scout, a ship more suitable than a goddamn badger to haul 10b in cargo and not autopiloting like an idiot

and yes, if some idiot is flying a badger with 10b in cargo, he should be robbed blind with his cargo flown by a smarter, more competent person to jita for sale


So now youre saying "proper gameplay" requires you to have scout alts and armored-to-teeth combat ships manually piloting through high-security space? Why? Because the mighty goonscrub wants it this way?

If there is an autopilot function in the game, its legit to use it. If there is a badger hauler in the game, its legit to use it.

How come youre so concerned with newbies in high-sec? Youre big mouthed Delve e-peen fest didnt go so well? Insecure much? Show us on a doll where the girls never touch you.


well delve burned, what more could be done?
we were all touched by this http://soundcloud.com/gecko-1-1/gecko-fleet-phoon-awox

vitoc erryday
RAP ACTION HERO
#30 - 2012-08-07 11:24:12 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
also since hisec should be safe from all nonconsensual PvP I guess the risk/reward balance should be looked at, i.e. removing hisec incursions, l4s and exploration sites


yeah old-fashioned incursion 1.0 for null & low, that new crap for hisec cus hisec is SAFER?

vitoc erryday
Herr Hammer Draken
#31 - 2012-08-07 11:24:53 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
nobody's complaining about the game being "dumbed down"

people are unhappy, however, about hisec slowly being turned into a consensual PvP-only "safe area"


This argument is so full of fail. Would you prefer an eve in which everybody just camps up?
What a boring game that would be. Make high sec just like null and that is what would happen.
As soon as somebody not blue showed up everybody camps.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-08-07 11:25:02 UTC
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
If there is an autopilot function in the game, its legit to use it.


It also lands you 15km away from a gate or station. Funny how that works, eh?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-08-07 11:26:25 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
This argument is so full of fail. Would you prefer an eve in which everybody just camps up?
What a boring game that would be. Make high sec just like null and that is what would happen.
As soon as somebody not blue showed up everybody camps.


who ever said anything about making hisec "just like nullsec"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#34 - 2012-08-07 11:30:41 UTC
Quote:
You're going to have to pull out some sources for this assertion, I'm afraid.


I don't think we need to have sources to make this assertion, its not that hard to make the connection. It is a fact that there isn't a single modern MMO on todays market that has full loot full PvP throughout the game world and managed to be successful nore has there ever been one in the past. They are all low population failures. All good PvP MMO's have safe areas where the economy can function to attract economic minded players who generally hate PvP.

Games that have been successful like Ultima Online for example, where successful for this very reason. Good PvP backed by a population of economic minded players surviving in safe areas feeding the population of PvPer players.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Herr Hammer Draken
#35 - 2012-08-07 11:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Richard Desturned wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
This argument is so full of fail. Would you prefer an eve in which everybody just camps up?
What a boring game that would be. Make high sec just like null and that is what would happen.
As soon as somebody not blue showed up everybody camps.


who ever said anything about making hisec "just like nullsec"


Geez really just about every other day there is a post about this and someone always says make high sec like null.
It must be the number one statement made about high sec on the forums.
So freaking just about everybody has said that at least once.
I bet if I searched your history posts I could find where you even said that once or twice.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#36 - 2012-08-07 11:33:10 UTC
Quote:
PvP doesn't just mean "shooting somebody's ship" fyi


No arguing there, but the part that is being patched is "shooting somebodys ship" and exactly for that reason, High Sec is not safe enough, its not where open PvP is supposed to take place. If you want to PvP in high sec, you war dec, thats what this mechanic is for.

Simply put while Ganking is not something CCP wants to admit to eliminating as it is a form of "play style" in the game that has been adopted by some players, its obviously not their intention to have it be a primary activity in high sec. Thats what some of these high sec fixes are about.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#37 - 2012-08-07 11:35:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Hence the patches to curve just that.
You mean “curb”?
Yeah, no. They're not really doing that.

Largely because it would make the game collapse.


No I mean Curve.. as in, redirect it a bit, but not eliminate it. And no if sucide ganking was eliminated from high sec all together the game would not collapse at all. It would just be played differently.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-08-07 11:40:38 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
No I mean Curve.. as in, redirect it a bit, but not eliminate it. And no if sucide ganking was eliminated from high sec all together the game would not collapse at all. It would just be played differently.


No, eliminating suicide ganking would be indicative of CCP completely throwing risk vs. reward out the window and going Trammel.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-08-07 11:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Richard Desturned wrote:
nobody's complaining about the game being "dumbed down"

people are unhappy, however, about hisec slowly being turned into a consensual PvP-only "safe area"


Two things, your Palpatiness:

1. PvP in high sec is rarely consensual, it's usually either ganks or pirate corp declaring wars on mining corps to extort money. Sad part is, should you attempt to fight back and actually present a threat, that same pirate corp will do the same, they'll run and hide, dock and wait for threat to pass, at which point they'll go after stragglers again. I know, I know, "don't be ****" and stuff - it just shows how the mentality of most high sec players - pirates included - works. There are bright exceptions, of course, but they're few and far between.

2. PvP in high sec is a crappy mix of neutral RRs, logoffs, station games, etc. Ironically, when a war is declared on you, the safest thing to do is - moving into low sec. Not only are most pirates way too chicken to actually come after you, but due to different combat mechanics (mainly no CONCORD), it's easier to stage a viable defense there.


Both things imo point to one nasty conclusion - that waging a war in high sec is annoying. You can limit yourself to ganks, but again, due to CONCORD mechanics, you can't really act on suspicion. For instance, let's assume we have a a miner with an armed escort in an asteroid belt. Two catalysts land close nearby, obviously ready to strike at the miner. What can his armed escort do? Nothing at all, unless they want to lose ships to CONCORD, which also means waiving the insurance. In turn, the only thing the miner can do is run, unless he's tanked enough to survive those two catalysts. Or hauling goods. We scout out a gate camp, obviously ready to suicide gank our transport as soon as we come through the gate. In low sec, you'll jump in 20 drakes or whatever, clear out the camp and move on. In high sec? Nope, you're going the long way around and better hope the second gate's not camped.

Sometimes, I really wish the whole high sec (minus starter systems, perhaps) were turned to low sec, problem solved.

Richard Desturned wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
No I mean Curve.. as in, redirect it a bit, but not eliminate it. And no if sucide ganking was eliminated from high sec all together the game would not collapse at all. It would just be played differently.


No, eliminating suicide ganking would be indicative of CCP completely throwing risk vs. reward out the window and going Trammel.


I agree with this. Some risk must exist and in the given situation, suicide ganks are a valid alternative. I just think they're **** compared to what we could have.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I just wish we'd have more options for actual fights and less options for cheesing.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-08-07 11:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Two things, your Palpatiness:

1. PvP in high sec is rarely consensual, it's usually either ganks or pirate corp declaring wars on mining corps to extort money. Sad part is, should you attempt to fight back and actually present a threat, that same pirate corp will do the same, they'll run and hide, dock and wait for threat to pass, at which point they'll go after stragglers again. I know, I know, "don't be ****" and stuff - it just shows how the mentality of most high sec players - pirates included - works. There are bright exceptions, of course, but they're few and far between.

2. PvP in high sec is a crappy mix of neutral RRs, logoffs, station games, etc. Ironically, when a war is declared on you, the safest thing to do is - moving into low sec. Not only are most pirates way too chicken to actually come after you, but due to different combat mechanics (mainly no CONCORD), it's easier to stage a viable defense there.


Both things imo point to one nasty conclusion - that waging a war in high sec is annoying. You can limit yourself to ganks, but again, due to CONCORD mechanics, you can't really act on suspicion. For instance, let's assume we have a a miner with an armed escort in an asteroid belt. Two catalysts land close nearby, obviously ready to strike at the miner. What can his armed escort do? Nothing at all, unless they want to lose ships to CONCORD, which also means waiving the insurance. In turn, the only thing the miner can do is run, unless he's tanked enough to survive those two catalysts. Or hauling goods. We scout out a gate camp, obviously ready to suicide gank our transport as soon as we come through the gate. In low sec, you'll jump in 20 drakes or whatever, clear out the camp and move on. In high sec? Nope, you're going the long way around and better hope the second gate's not camped.

Sometimes, I really wish the whole high sec (minus starter systems, perhaps) were turned to low sec, problem solved.


I don't care for the wardec corps that are essentially composed of "retired" mission/incursion bears. Neutral RR isn't really the problem considering that RR aggresses you it's station games, which are stupid (a consequence of the lack of actual strategic targets in hisec short of research towers and other crap that is hardly of consequence) and I certainly don't care for the "drop corp, reapply, look for targets, find a target, accept your character with an alt and kill" tactic.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration