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Outlaws in highsec? Retire the Faction Navy in Crimewatch!
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Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-08-06 22:16:47 UTC
Because of lore and faction warfare

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#42 - 2012-08-06 22:20:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
Can we petition to have CONCORD arrest Herr Wilkus?
He is the worst troll ever, his logic is entirely fallible.


Go back to sitting in stations with Makalu.

E: Please put more friendly ECM drones on him in fights too.


Thems fighting words boy!
Amber Solaire
COMA Holdings
Cosmic Maniacs
#43 - 2012-08-06 22:24:09 UTC
All pods with -10 standing with concord should have their pods shot at by gateguns...problem solved Lol
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#44 - 2012-08-06 22:26:07 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Why do we need Faction Navy attacking outlaws? Serious question.

I'm hoping their removal is being considered for Crimewatch - placing security in the hands of the players, not automated scripts. Could have sworn I'd heard something about this mentioned, once - but its still vaporware at this point.
So far, most of it has been laughably bad, like Concord protected neutral RR and gate guns killing can flippers.

One thing I've never really understood is why it is necessary for NPC Navy to attack, when outlaws already have no protection from Concord....

A typical situation in highsec:

1. My -10 suicide ganker alt blows up a Hulk.
2. Miner gets mad, and hops in a Drake, and starts calling out the ganker.
3. Now...as much as I'd LOVE to deprive the angry miner of his failfit Drake....its not really possible to fight him because of Faction Navy interfering with the fight.

So, why is 'Concord's re-tarded half-brother' - the Navy needed?

-Concord already whacks you if you do anything aggressive, outlaw or not.
-ANY player is allowed to attack and pod you at any time....which means the fight will always be initiated by the 'good player'.
-The 'good player' can easily recruit more help...
-and last, currently the Faction Navy is completely incapable of stopping suicide ganks in highsec anyway.

Why is it necessary to make legit fights between pirates and high-sec 'vigilantes' mostly impossible?
Why do faction navy ships need to put their thumb on the scale?

Why NOT let -10 players 'move' through highsec, going about their business and/or trolling for fights with random players?

It creates no additional disadvantage for highsec players who wish to remain 'non-interactive' and it provides amble opportunities for budding 'vigilantes' to take a shot at PVP - without leaving the safety of highsec!
Its a risky endeavor for the outlaw, as they can move in highsec - but could easily be overwhelmed by high-sec players looking for a pirate killmail....

'Game lore arguments' and pointless real life comparisons need not apply.

If 'Crimewatch' is supposed to be about putting high-sec security into player hands - why not nerf the Navy?
Or is 'Crimewatch' merely going to be one more excuse to make highsec even safer, and further segregate the player base?



Comon dude you can do better than this.

We all know you'll bring NR's.

I'd have all priates Concorded the moment they flew a ship in high sec, and Pod a vulnerable target with 2 minute warp align. Want to abuse the laws of the land, then pay the consequence.

You yourself made a rule to Miners. Tank your Hulk or get podded. Made them pay the consequence.

This idea would put Pirates as safe in Hi sec, as the ones that don't do criminal activity. Which even you must be able to see how stupid that would be.



o7


NR'ing the -10 would get the logi concorded... just like in low sec where sentry guns start to shoot the logi when reps are put on a non aggressed friend with bad sec

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#45 - 2012-08-06 22:43:15 UTC
I'd be more in favour of making the NPC Navies about as powerful as similar sized belt rats rather than removing them completely. That way the -10's would always be at a disadvantage while looking for a fight in highsec, but would at least be capable of getting one.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#46 - 2012-08-06 22:47:10 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Wow. So gratifying to have my fan club of trolls.

I'm not really seeing a whole lot of argument against my position, however.

A lot of judgement. Yeah, sure I'm a dirty miner ganker - but plenty of people get ridiculously low sec status simply from fighting skirmishes in low-sec.

Hey, I could be wrong - there could be something really gamebreaking that would occur if the Faction Navy suddenly went away, but I'm not seeing it in these troll-posts.

And I'm trying to come up with a game breaking situation.

Pirate fleet, complete with RR and max skills, 25 or 30 of them.
They go take up positions outside Jita 4-4. Then what? What is the worst they could do?

They sit there until they get picked apart by other players or another fleet shows up?
Play station games? So what? Doesn't hurt anyone.
Suicide Gank someone? They can do that already, with or without the Navy.

My point stands:
If the highsec players want to be left alone, they just 'ignore the red guys' and go about their business.
If they want to fight - they fight on their terms.

I don't see where high-sec players 'lose' on this one. Paint me a picture.

Only thing I can possibly think of is needing them to enforce FW battlelines in highsec.....but that has nothing to do with 'outlaw' status....

Perhaps some actual -10 pirates can enlighten me why this would be a bad idea, rather than just carebear miner trolls?



Freedom to continue ganking is one area it affects. Some gankers go red then stop ganking. Your scenerio in jita. Just sitting there cherry picking ganks. Oh the sweet irony. Thats one way this will get abused.


o7
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#47 - 2012-08-06 23:23:20 UTC
Wait, so an outlaw will sit in jita cherry picking targets? And no one will shoot this outlaw sitting there "waiting"? Yeah, you clearly know a lot about this game and we should hang onto every word you write. Lol
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#48 - 2012-08-06 23:38:29 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Freedom to continue ganking is one area it affects. Some gankers go red then stop ganking. Your scenerio in jita. Just sitting there cherry picking ganks. Oh the sweet irony. Thats one way this will get abused.


o7


Ludi beat me to it. Your ignorance of game mechanics is about what I'd expect from a carebear.

NOBODY could just sit outside Jita as an outlaw cherry picking suicide gank targets.

Gankship <> PVP ship. A 1400MM ganking Tornado has what, 7000 EHP?
Another Tornado could volley it off the map - in one shot.

As I said before - suicide ganking tactics are essentially unaffected by the Navy.
About the only difference is that the pirate could loiter at a SS inside the ship - as opposed to sitting next to it in a pod, which is really, no difference at all.

An outlaw 'red' pilot loitering in any area that presents targets worth attacking, would be immediately attacked himself - and at a severe disadvantage, I might add, due to having gank-ship fittings/EHP.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#49 - 2012-08-06 23:41:07 UTC
Pankas Carter wrote:
Perhaps you should go fight someone willing to fight, instead of inciting people who were minding their own business?



First clueless, puling carebear heard from, and only post #6, too!

That was quick.

So, whose sock-puppet are you, again?

Or are you trying to say that no-one in hisec actually wants to go after those ebbil scawwy piwwates?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#50 - 2012-08-06 23:47:46 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Comon dude you can do better than this.

We all know you'll bring NR's.

I'd have all priates Concorded the moment they flew a ship in high sec, and Pod a vulnerable target with 2 minute warp align. Want to abuse the laws of the land, then pay the consequence.

You yourself made a rule to Miners. Tank your Hulk or get podded. Made them pay the consequence.

This idea would put Pirates as safe in Hi sec, as the ones that don't do criminal activity. Which even you must be able to see how stupid that would be.



o7


so you want the consequences provided by scripts rather than taking matters into your own hands and dishing the punishments out yourself

Yes, because I cannot be in every high sec system at all times. For the consequences to be meaningful, they need to be omni-present, persistent, and continuous.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-08-06 23:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
I am absolutely certain that CCP Greyscale will endorse and deliberately implement a change that could result in more PvP, ganks, or things exploding, as well as increase gameplay opportunities for outlaws and PvPers in general.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#52 - 2012-08-06 23:57:09 UTC
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
Having negative sec status is a consequence of not having the balls to fight in 0.0 and picking easy carebear targets on highsec/lowsec gates .. EVE is all about consequence, sandbox and all.

Stop begging for easy kills and easy access to highsec, coming from a veteran player its worse than pathetic.


Post with your ub3r-1337 nullsec win-main, then.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#53 - 2012-08-07 00:00:14 UTC
Pankas Carter wrote:
Perhaps you should go fight someone willing to fight, instead of inciting people who were minding their own business?



Yeah, please don't incite this guy into doing something he doesn't want to do. Throw free will out the window if we call him a fruit he MUST attack!!!
Spurty
#54 - 2012-08-07 00:07:14 UTC
Player run police?

That sounds easily corruptible. I love the idea.

"You gave me 10 mill, gank all you want this month."
/me Walks away whistling

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#55 - 2012-08-07 00:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Vincent Athena wrote:

Yes, because I cannot be in every high sec system at all times. For the consequences to be meaningful, they need to be omni-present, persistent, and continuous.



Why does it have to be you, in particular?

Besides if you really DO want to hunt pirates, you should be interested in this change - because there would be more pirates in high-sec. Right now, outlaws are essentially just used for suicide purposes or jetting around in shuttles. Not much opportunity to hunt them, now is there?

They wouldn't really be able to 'do' much harm. Ganking occurs anyway, and comes with Concord response.
They'd be able to shoot back if someone attacked them - without the benefit of RR support - and the risk of podding. And thats about it.

There will be the odd clueless carebear who starts a fight with the wrong pirate. Consider that the 'learning curve'.
The pirates would just as often get destroyed when the 'high sec' players bring in RR and more numbers, as the ability to initiate aggression only goes one way.

And I'm sure a lot of pirates would take that risk anyway - just on the offhand chance they'd have some fights that aren't hopelessly tilted by endless waves of NPCs.

Maybe THAT would a way to help clear up lowsec gatecamps. Give outlaws the ability to make 'thunder runs' through highsec - just to see if anyone is up to shoot back - give them a reason to do more than just camp gates.

Perhaps if either CCP Soundwave or Greyscale were able to think outside the box for a second or two - instead of just piling on more and more stupid punitive measures. (Faster Concord! more EHP! no insurance! super gate guns!)
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#56 - 2012-08-07 00:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
Herr Wilkus wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Freedom to continue ganking is one area it affects. Some gankers go red then stop ganking. Your scenerio in jita. Just sitting there cherry picking ganks. Oh the sweet irony. Thats one way this will get abused.


o7


Ludi beat me to it. Your ignorance of game mechanics is about what I'd expect from a carebear.

NOBODY could just sit outside Jita as an outlaw cherry picking suicide gank targets.

Gankship <> PVP ship. A 1400MM ganking Tornado has what, 7000 EHP?
Another Tornado could volley it off the map - in one shot.

As I said before - suicide ganking tactics are essentially unaffected by the Navy.
About the only difference is that the pirate could loiter at a SS inside the ship - as opposed to sitting next to it in a pod, which is really, no difference at all.

An outlaw 'red' pilot loitering in any area that presents targets worth attacking, would be immediately attacked himself - and at a severe disadvantage, I might add, due to having gank-ship fittings/EHP.





YOUR scenerio. L2Read. 25-30 pirates. With RR. Yeppers I can see that lonely drake going full steam ahead into that pack. I am not saying it will not make more PVP, but PVP on your terms it will be. You know as well as I do, that there will not be many taking you on. and the gains you make from this outweigh the negatives.

There is a guy in Gallante space by the name of Bob. He ganks an icebelt. He is permantly -10 sec status. This does not stop him flying to the Icebelt, to be either ganked or to gank. Imagine if he had the time to scan down his targets first, without the need for an Alt. Sometimes while scanning he gets shot at, granted, but this opens up a whole lot of favourable options for the ganker. Sitting off grid in a system waiting for that juicey Hauler to come along, is another thing you'd be able to do.

Like you have already said. The Navy puts you at a disadvantage, and this is why you don't engage with the ones you ganked braying for your blood. Or remain in space waiting for a target to gank. What make you think you'll risk losing that 100 mil ship engaging a Vigilante or 5, IF you didn't think you would win.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#57 - 2012-08-07 00:22:11 UTC
RR can't happen on red flashies in highsec. The RR dude gets a GCC even in lowsec. If he decides to jump into high during that time CONCORD eats him.

Even if the player RR'ing is red flashy, still, he gets GCC.

GCC = Death in less than 20 secs.
Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#58 - 2012-08-07 00:25:23 UTC
Not to mention if there were 25-30 of them, and that drake decided to engage one of them, only that one would legally be able to return fire.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
#59 - 2012-08-07 00:29:09 UTC
How about anyone -5 and below be auto-podded in 0.5 and above ? Lol

Criminals can stay in Low/Null sec where they belong P
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#60 - 2012-08-07 00:37:03 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:


YOUR scenerio. L2Read. 25-30 pirates. With RR. Yeppers I can see that lonely drake going full steam ahead into that pack. I am not saying it will not make more PVP, but PVP on your terms it will be. You know as well as I do, that there will not be many taking you on. and the gains you make from this outweigh the negatives.

There is a guy in Gallante space by the name of Bob. He ganks an icebelt. He is permantly -10 sec status. This does not stop him flying to the Icebelt, to be either ganked or to gank. Imagine if he had the time to scan down his targets first, without the need for an Alt. Sometimes while scanning he gets shot at, granted, but this opens up a whole lot of favourable options for the ganker. Sitting off grid in a system waiting for that juicey Hauler to come along, is another thing you'd be able to do.

Like you have already said. The Navy puts you at a disadvantage, and this is why you don't engage with the ones you ganked braying for your blood. Or remain in space waiting for a target to gank. What make you think you'll risk losing that 100 mil ship engaging a Vigilante or 5, IF you didn't think you would win.


Sitting off grid waiting for a hauler without an alt is pointless. If you are off-grid, you aren't close enough to figure out if it was worth attacking. On grid, anybody coming through the gate attack your gankship. (Favourable options? really?)

Running around in an ice-belt with a ganking Tornado as an outlaw would lead to A) non-AFK miners warping off - and also it would draw plenty of attention from other players who want to kill that Tornado. (And besides, a single lone Tornado won't be able to do jackshit to most Exhumers in a couple days.) With an alt, well, thats the situation we have today, so removing the Navy does almost nothing.

Jita scenario: lets walk through it.
You have 25-30 Pirates outside Jita 4-4. With RR. Mixed suicide gankers/PVPers....

A lonely Drake decides to single out one pirate gank-Tornado - warp scrambles and attacks it.
The Tornado isn't going to be able to fight off the Drake solo.

Or, hell, suppose the Drake singles out a PVP Hurricane.

What, exactly, are his friends going to do about it? RR? Concord death.
Shoot the Drake? Concord death.
Give moral support in local and bump - thats about it.

The Drake, on the other hand can call in anyone he likes to help out....and in Jita, it would be plenty.

Seems like a pretty big advantage already, really - it makes the Navy overkill - to the point where pirates won't even appear in highsec - meaning the only pirates you'll find are in low-sec - which means you'll never find them because you won't go there.

I think pirates are willing to fight at a disadvantage in highsec - if the disadvantage is reasonable. And that disadvantage, as described already exists in highsec.

Endless streams of ECMing/Scramming/Webbing and shooting NPCs in 10 seconds? LOL.
They'll just sit in low sec and camp gates.