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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Exploit? CCP response requested .

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Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#121 - 2012-08-06 18:34:52 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The ONLY complaint was your mischaracterization of RISK associated with busting up a plex gate camp.

1. There are STILL no hot drops on FW plex gates.
2. 107km "Loki boosted Arazus" can't stop sombody from turning on their MWD and burning away.
3. You can warp every element of your gang at the desired range - FROM a warp in locations. Put your gate camp away from any aligned celestials. No warp-in maneuvere is practicable.
4. This is not a problem if your crew is smart enough to position themselves properly in the first place (See Point #3).

Will you at least retract the following statement?

Quote:
leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces



Fair enough its not exactly like sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km, but I still maintain that current game mechanics allow various cheesy yet slightly less effective but equally risk averse variants of this already.

Instalock ceptors with sentry drones assigned to them, instalock nados placed in line with the acceleration gate to minimize transversal.

Fleets that rely on proper placement are still more or less niche fleets like the ones I just mentioned, that probably wouldn't do well in a standup fight anyways and are very situational.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#122 - 2012-08-06 18:47:28 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Pax Thar wrote:
Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.

Working as intended.


I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.

The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.

Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....


Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will.

Pinky Feldman wrote:

Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.



Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics.


Of course the other gang can split up and running many other plexes, but we already established earlier that the current mechanics favor those who seek only to plex and avoid conflict.

Finally, regarding the splitting your gang up, sure thats an option, but it doesn't make it a good one and is entirely situational. If you're the attacker, you need to have a larger force since you're already limited by your group's ability to reinforce losses, so dropping numbers until you get an "even" fight still ultimately becomes a loss since you can't reship as quickly as the other side can, and there is nothing that you can do to stop them from sending in said reinforcements.

Right now, the way the mechanics work for those who want to maximize system capture, if you don't have the right ships and can't get into the plex first, most of the time you're better off just conceding that plex without a fight and getting into the appropriate ships for the next plex so that you can hopefully beat your opponent into it.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#123 - 2012-08-06 21:17:30 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain wrote:

*stuff about timers and notifications*

*moar stuff about nados and ceptors*


I'm against the idea of having system wide notifications and what not. I understand the value they would provide, but from an intel standpoint, this is something that should be placed in the hands of the players. Good intel provides a HUGE advantage for the side that has the resources and the willingness to properly scout and is one of the biggest unspoken force multipliers in the game. Removing this aspect from the game would take away something that exists in every other part of EVE .....


I agree that the need for alt scouts exists in every other part of eve. And yes its a huge advantage. Its the reason good quality pvp takes hours to find in eve. And why so much eve time for most pvpers involves shipping up and shipping down. But like you said every other aspect of eve emphasizes alt scouts. There is no reason one single aspect of the game can't be geared toward people who just want to jump in a ship and pew.

The strategies would change from having alts find the enemy gang so you can ship up 2xs their strength, to assigning pilots to different systems so they can continually fight. There is no reason all the eve pvp has to be the same.


Pinky Feldman wrote:

Regarding the nados and ceptors, theres nothing stopping people from sitting instalocking Arty nados in front of or behind minor acceleration gates as it is. Technically you can do this already.


You might be right. I don't know if you are invulnerable after you activate the gate. If naods become a problem then ccp should address it.

In any event helping people camp accelleration gates is not really a solution to the problem of plexing being a pve activity where pvp is avoided. People will just warp a distance from the gate and enter it. You will make plexing more tedious but that is about it.

The notification system and the timer countdown will actually make it so you are better off fighting as opposed to always running.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#124 - 2012-08-06 21:26:51 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:


I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.

The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.

Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....


Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will.

Pinky Feldman wrote:

Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.



Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics.


Of course the other gang can split up and running many other plexes, but we already established earlier that the current mechanics favor those who seek only to plex and avoid conflict.


Helping accel gate campers will do little to improve this.
Pinky Feldman wrote:

Finally, regarding the splitting your gang up, sure thats an option, but it doesn't make it a good one and is entirely situational. If you're the attacker, you need to have a larger force since you're already limited by your group's ability to reinforce losses, so dropping numbers until you get an "even" fight still ultimately becomes a loss since you can't reship as quickly as the other side can, and there is nothing that you can do to stop them from sending in said reinforcements..


Even if we end up fighting outside a plexes instead of inside a plex the attacker will still need more numbers due to an inability to reship. You are expressing problems that your proposal doesn't solve.

What you identified is a problem with the station lockout rule. Not the rule that you can't easilly gank people as they enter plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#125 - 2012-08-09 19:54:48 UTC
Why dont the campers just split their fleet on the inside and outside of the plex, just like you have to do on a stargate?
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#126 - 2012-08-10 13:19:13 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Why dont the campers just split their fleet on the inside and outside of the plex, just like you have to do on a stargate?


New people are trying to figure best way to fight for the plexes, old veterans know lot of different tricks how to win plex fights.