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sooooo what just happend? Dev response please.
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flakeys
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-08-06 15:28:38 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Margin Trading is one of the most useless skills in-game, its purpose should be reevaluated imo.


When it allows traders to set up buy orders without tying up a ton of capital, yeah, I'd say it's pretty useful.


And now i'm agreeing with a goon .... this thread is mind boggling.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-08-06 16:28:43 UTC
Another thing is the scam usually involves artificially inflating the item by buying your own over priced item. Didn't something very recently involving manipulating an item price history and something with LP cause a big thing and end the end was deemed an exploit?

Point is the price history as a tell is hardly reliable.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-08-06 16:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Marconus Orion wrote:
Didn't something very recently involving manipulating an item price history and something with LP cause a big thing and end the end was deemed an exploit?

Point is the price history as a tell is hardly reliable.
Not quite. It was a manipulation of the average price calculation, and exploiting the reward system's inability to differentiate between destroyed and dropped items.

Price history is very reliable since it makes it very easy to spot such manipulations and check whether it's believable that the volumes in question would normally be sold at the price listed. Scam = no sale = no data point on the history. So it's actually one of the earlier hints that something is amiss.
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#44 - 2012-08-06 16:40:32 UTC
Vince Arron wrote:
There was a buy order in the market for 5 sleeper foundation blocks they where buying them for 70mill each.

i then bought 5 blocks for 50mill each and then sold them to the buyer. However instead of filling the buy order its just disappeared and then put the sleeper blocks on the market for 70 mill each under the seller tab.

Im not sure what happened here it makes no sence.


It's a macro scam bot, CCP needs to fix this.

To fool the bot, so it breaks do this.
Make sure you don't have enough money in your wallet and then click the buy button, thus fooling the macro and watch all those buy order dissapear. You will get purchased failed message because you dont have enought funds.

I think this works cos their wallet will flash even if you don't have enough isk to buy it.

..
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-08-06 16:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Marconus Orion
Tippia wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Didn't something very recently involving manipulating an item price history and something with LP cause a big thing and end the end was deemed an exploit?

Point is the price history as a tell is hardly reliable.
Not quite. It was a manipulation of the average price calculation, and exploiting the reward system's inability to differentiate between destroyed and dropped items.

Price history is very reliable since it makes it very easy to spot such manipulations and check whether it's believable that the volumes in question would normally be sold at the price listed. Scam = no sale = no data point on the history. So it's actually one of the earlier hints that something is amiss.

And if the buy order is legit? If they needed said item fast so they put up an order to attract someone willing to fill it ASAP?
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-08-06 16:54:40 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Vince Arron wrote:
There was a buy order in the market for 5 sleeper foundation blocks they where buying them for 70mill each.

i then bought 5 blocks for 50mill each and then sold them to the buyer. However instead of filling the buy order its just disappeared and then put the sleeper blocks on the market for 70 mill each under the seller tab.

Im not sure what happened here it makes no sence.


It's a macro scam bot, CCP needs to fix this.

To fool the bot, so it breaks do this.
Make sure you don't have enough money in your wallet and then click the buy button, thus fooling the macro and watch all those buy order dissapear. You will get purchased failed message because you dont have enought funds.

I think this works cos their wallet will flash even if you don't have enough isk to buy it.


actually this doesn't involve a macro, it's a buy order that automatically fails because only 24% of the value is in escrow with no ISK in the character's wallet to fill it

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vince Arron
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-08-06 17:03:11 UTC
Jovan Geldon wrote:
DEV RESPONSE PLEASE

Aren't you precious


At the time i thought it was a server side error. now that i know its a scam i dont really care, Its eve people get scammed its part of the game.

So you and your condescending tone can kiss my ass.
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-08-06 17:06:24 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:

Bolded the important part.

Your intended use of the skill wouldnt work well if you don't have the money for the minimum quantity. You will have an ISK buffer to handle a surplus of completed buy orders until the income from the sell orders evens it out.

Ah, I seem to have misread.

And now I stand in defeat. My life to yours...

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
flakeys
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-08-06 19:55:46 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Didn't something very recently involving manipulating an item price history and something with LP cause a big thing and end the end was deemed an exploit?

Point is the price history as a tell is hardly reliable.
Not quite. It was a manipulation of the average price calculation, and exploiting the reward system's inability to differentiate between destroyed and dropped items.

Price history is very reliable since it makes it very easy to spot such manipulations and check whether it's believable that the volumes in question would normally be sold at the price listed. Scam = no sale = no data point on the history. So it's actually one of the earlier hints that something is amiss.

And if the buy order is legit? If they needed said item fast so they put up an order to attract someone willing to fill it ASAP?



It's never for stuff people need filled asap.If it was such a commodity wich would be frequently used and ''needed'' then the scam wouldn't work at all.Yet again the point why you do research before just seeing dollar signs in your head.

Greed is the only reason this scam even works , if it was a smaller margin people might have a look but now they just see a damned good amount of isk they can make and try to buy/sell as fast as they can before someone else walks away with the isk.

I have traded for 100's of billions worth yet never have fallen for this scam , not because i'm smart but because i take the time to press the price history tab if something looks too good to be true.Hell i even do it for stuff that has a small volume on the market just to see if it is the regular price.Something you want to do for implants for example.Takes you 5 secs most since you allready have the specified market tab open and saves you a headache and forum post .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Flakey Foont
#50 - 2012-08-06 19:58:20 UTC
Still want a dev response?
Vince Arron
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-08-06 20:08:48 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
Still want a dev response?


Try reading 2 posts up sparky.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-08-06 20:08:53 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Margin Trading is one of the most useless skills in-game, its purpose should be reevaluated imo.


Should be completely removed from the game. And some other trading skills need a huge nerf bat, tehre's not reason people should be able to log in station do their pubbie right hand pleasure clicks for a couple min log off and just collect huge amounts of isk.

Seems research was bad for the game, PI is still not considered but soon will, it's about time trading get a nice nerf stick.

brb
flakeys
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-08-07 14:32:25 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Margin Trading is one of the most useless skills in-game, its purpose should be reevaluated imo.


Should be completely removed from the game. And some other trading skills need a huge nerf bat, tehre's not reason people should be able to log in station do their pubbie right hand pleasure clicks for a couple min log off and just collect huge amounts of isk.

Seems research was bad for the game, PI is still not considered but soon will, it's about time trading get a nice nerf stick.



Can't quite spot if it's either troll or jealousy some can use their brains unlike you ... i'll go with troll .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
#54 - 2012-08-07 14:37:29 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Margin Trading is one of the most useless skills in-game, its purpose should be reevaluated imo.

I love the skill and am happy with it. But the mechanic that the orders aren't canceld if you don't have the money for the minimum quantity is realy stupid.

Actually, I agree, that's what the real problem lies. The fact that there are orders remaining on the market that in one or the other way is not behaving like normal orders.

Either those gets removed or a pilot that can't cover the values gets fined or something.

/c


OR CCP CAN PAINT THEM FLOURESCENT PINK.


yes....yes
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-08-08 00:51:16 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
I just sent a Nigerian prince $10K to help him get his fortune. I'm gonna be rich...

Yep...gonna be rich...Soon I think...
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-08-08 00:56:53 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Good old marginal trading scam. Impossible to detect. Which is why CCP needs to look into forcing buy orders to self cancel if there is not enough ISK in the wallet to cover it. I enjoy scams too, but as long as there is a way to detect the scam. With marginal trading it is impossible.

Flame me if you want, I do not give a single F.


is the item absurdly over priced, is buy order even more 1-2 jumps away?--- scam
is the item useless but still being bought for lots? --- scam
is there a minimum buy amount higher then 1? scam
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#57 - 2012-08-08 02:56:54 UTC
I use minimum buy all the time, to protect myself from people leaving one or two of an item that has low individual value sitting in each station of my buy range (some people are doing this deliberately: same person selling me one coolant in each station of my buy range).

Having one sell order selling about the same amount as the highest buy order, where the sell and buy orders are not in a market hub, is a good indicator that you are looking at a scam. Especially if someone comments about it in local. The only way to really be safe is to check the market history: if the top two or three buy orders are margin trading scams, can I still sell this item for a profit, in the quantities that are being sold?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-08-08 05:34:24 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Good old marginal trading scam. Impossible to detect. Which is why CCP needs to look into forcing buy orders to self cancel if there is not enough ISK in the wallet to cover it. I enjoy scams too, but as long as there is a way to detect the scam. With marginal trading it is impossible.

Flame me if you want, I do not give a single F.


is the item absurdly over priced, is buy order even more 1-2 jumps away?--- scam
is the item useless but still being bought for lots? --- scam
is there a minimum buy amount higher then 1? scam

This is funny. I could setup a real buy order that follows that criteria and it would not be a scam. No one in this game can possibly know the difference.
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#59 - 2012-08-08 05:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ludi Burek
I like the margin trading skill and removing it would be a direct nerf (another one sigh) for me. Would ruin mah scams Lol

Nah, I don't run the margin trading trick (it's not really a scam) but I do constantly have about tripple the amount of isk in buy orders than in my wallet. And none of my orders would fail as everything filling at once is close to impossible but it allows working beyond my wallet size. Having to have full isk tied up would really cramp my play style.
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