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What can we do about Railguns and Beams?
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#21 - 2012-08-06 11:24:12 UTC
Goremageddon Box wrote:
I don't understand how many threads have to be made on this topic for ccp to listen.


:(((((((((((((((((((


They probably won't listen because they know both weapon systems are fine atm.

Feel free to look at modern nullsec fleet compositions.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-08-06 11:24:40 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Rails are the weapon by which TEST's conquest of Delve, Querious and Period Basis was wrought, you know.


pretty sure they weren't

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#23 - 2012-08-06 11:27:51 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Rails are the weapon by which TEST's conquest of Delve, Querious and Period Basis was wrought, you know.


pretty sure they weren't


Rokhs proved themselves on the battlefield multiple times during the war.

That said, I'm pretty sure there's a mindflood dealer out there profiting on my extensive hatred of their cap inefficiency.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#24 - 2012-08-06 11:36:25 UTC
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.

Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#25 - 2012-08-06 11:43:14 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.

Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.


The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-08-06 11:49:58 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.

Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.


The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF.


How often do you find yourself engaging past 100km in fleets?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Doddy
Excidium.
#27 - 2012-08-06 11:53:07 UTC
Pilna Vcelka wrote:
Confirming railguns are in bad shape and need some sweet, sweet lovin.

I mean, come on, just look at commonly used fleet set-ups or tournament fleets, how many railboats do you see?


Yeah, imagine people using rokhs ......
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2012-08-06 11:58:15 UTC
Small rails are perfectly fine and absolutely lethal on frigs.

Medium rails should be adjusted for easier fitting, but I've found them usable now with the 5-second ammo switch time.

Most of the problems are not in rails, but in other weapon systems- why two races have to have selectable damage types? Why so much alpha on arties? Why heavy missiles have such a long range?

These are the elements that affect vast areas of EVE, and make rails look comparatively bad.

.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-08-06 12:49:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Long range guns are EXTREMELY well balanced! If they were not then Rokhs would not be used so much currently!
…aside from the fact that the one factor that is really meant to differentiate them has largely been rendered irrelevant due to other mechanics (probing). So the “extreme” balance is only on paper and only if you look at the guns on their own without any kind of context.


Respectfully, no. Rokh's range bonus is not a range bonus per se, as you hit a hard max with Javelins anyway. What that range bonus is actually used for is more damage - since Rokh can hit further than other ships of its kind, the pilot can switch to a shorter range ammo for higher dps. Currently, Rokh with 425mms and lead ammo can hit optimal at about 125km, whereas an equally geared Megathron (just as an example) would only hit 72km out and would have to switch to lower dps iron charges for similar range. The difference is almost 30% in favor of Rokh. Of course, Naga goes beyond Rokh for obvious reasons.

That's not to say that something should not be done about on-grid scanning, but I wouldn't go so far as to outright kill it. If you make you fleet vulnerable, you should hurt. Besides, there are other ways to find the ships. Come to think of it - what about a form of probe scramble module? Something that wouldn't outright prevent probing, but would make it more difficult. Frankly, add bonuses to that module to destroyers and voila, you have a viable fleet role for the ship type - sniper protection :D
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#30 - 2012-08-06 12:55:24 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.

Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.


The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF.


How often do you find yourself engaging past 100km in fleets?


Go back to your drake.
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#31 - 2012-08-06 13:01:07 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.

Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.


The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF.


How often do you find yourself engaging past 100km in fleets?


Go back to your drake.


Those Rokhs really shined last night, and by that I mean the explosions were pretty to look at. Ironic to, considering you say go back to his drake when you all fielded about 200 last night as well.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-08-06 13:35:56 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
That's not to say that something should not be done about on-grid scanning, but I wouldn't go so far as to outright kill it.
I would. There is no reason to have it and it has completely removed sniping it all its forms, thus wiping out an entire class of ships (and ammo).

Thankfully, they are looking at fixing this problem, so there's hope…
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#33 - 2012-08-06 13:41:54 UTC
Rokhs and Nagas are great. Large and Small Rails seem to be working reasonably well at the moment, but mediums are just... bad. It's hard to think of a single viable medium rail platform that isn't utterly eclipsed by some other alternative.

Cant speak for Beams, I never really used them much since Sniper HACs became obselete. Beam Zealots worked fine though. The trouble is that Scorch is really good, and until you're using Tachs, you're better off using Megapulse + Scorch. And Tachs are a bugger to fit. Anyone got any comments on Tach Oracles?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#34 - 2012-08-06 13:44:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
That's not to say that something should not be done about on-grid scanning, but I wouldn't go so far as to outright kill it.
I would. There is no reason to have it and it has completely removed sniping it all its forms, thus wiping out an entire class of ships (and ammo).

Thankfully, they are looking at fixing this problem, so there's hope…



Making probes targetable would do the job. That might even mean a new role for the sniper zealot I used to love so much ♥

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-08-06 13:46:21 UTC
Yea rails and beams suck, thats why you never snipe with Oracles and Nagas..
Hammer Borne
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-08-06 13:47:00 UTC
Just a completely wild thought that I am sure has holes in it:


Change plates to increase sig radius and not impact speed
Change shield extenders/purgers to decrease speed and not impact sig radius.

This would have many impacts, including fixing some of the weird mismatched nonsense of gun turret types to ship types.

Armor tanked ships (typically Gallente and Amar) would now be *slightly* better off on their speed, which helps Blasters get into range.

Rails with crappy tracking would be able to better manage their range (due to speed increase)

Missile boats would be hardly impacted at all. Some would get nerfed slightly due to speed loss (Caracal, etc); I am not sure if this would really be too much or not.

On top of that I would likely still say that Medium and Large Blasters need a slight range increase just so you don't need to facehug something to shoot it.

This would be a small impact change as far as I can tell, but may help edge things a bit more center.

Just thinking out loud.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2012-08-06 14:00:38 UTC
Hammer Borne wrote:
Just a completely wild thought that I am sure has holes in it:


Change plates to increase sig radius and not impact speed
Change shield extenders/purgers to decrease speed and not impact sig radius.

This would have many impacts, including fixing some of the weird mismatched nonsense of gun turret types to ship types.

Armor tanked ships (typically Gallente and Amar) would now be *slightly* better off on their speed, which helps Blasters get into range.

Rails with crappy tracking would be able to better manage their range (due to speed increase)

Missile boats would be hardly impacted at all. Some would get nerfed slightly due to speed loss (Caracal, etc); I am not sure if this would really be too much or not.

On top of that I would likely still say that Medium and Large Blasters need a slight range increase just so you don't need to facehug something to shoot it.

This would be a small impact change as far as I can tell, but may help edge things a bit more center.

Just thinking out loud.



Good thinking, Caldari ships aren't quite slow enough for an elderly snail to catch yet, this should fix that.Roll

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#38 - 2012-08-06 15:28:49 UTC
If the only strength to Rails is range, the range should be ABSURD.

For instance, Javelin (shortest range ammunition) on naked (no gyros or tracking enhancers) t2 425mm rails should be 90km+.

The strength from rails should be more dps AT RANGE, less alpha than artys. Best way to do that is extend the range of the shortest range ammo. Do that for all size rails (especially medium.... also, less pg need plzthxbai)
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-08-06 15:40:09 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
If the only strength to Rails is range, the range should be ABSURD.

For instance, Javelin (shortest range ammunition) on naked (no gyros or tracking enhancers) t2 425mm rails should be 90km+.

The strength from rails should be more dps AT RANGE, less alpha than artys. Best way to do that is extend the range of the shortest range ammo. Do that for all size rails (especially medium.... also, less pg need plzthxbai)


Railguns have plenty of range as it is.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#40 - 2012-08-06 15:43:49 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
If the only strength to Rails is range, the range should be ABSURD.

For instance, Javelin (shortest range ammunition) on naked (no gyros or tracking enhancers) t2 425mm rails should be 90km+.

The strength from rails should be more dps AT RANGE, less alpha than artys. Best way to do that is extend the range of the shortest range ammo. Do that for all size rails (especially medium.... also, less pg need plzthxbai)


Railguns have plenty of range as it is.


I have to agree said Goon here, The issue is not range, it's that Rails just don't have the damage to be all that effective. What the could use is either a firing rate bonus or just more raw damage.