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500m to declare war on Goonswarm? (AKA: why are small corps penalised by the wardec system?)

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Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-08-05 20:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Whipcrack
Please tell me how this new wardec system is supposed to be 'better'?

Apart from the obvious minor benefit that war is slightly easier to administer, it seems setup to protect large alliances.
So please explain to me how this is an improvement on the old system. For everyone apart from massive alliances, that is.

In short, it's vastly more expensive to declare war for smaller entities, and vastly cheaper for larger entities to initiate the same war. Why? It's not like 0.0 alliances don't enjoy targets in empire as a break from 0.0 blobbage, so this change seems to benefit no-one (apart from Solar Citizens)


Wardecs should not be vastly cheaper for the larger entity to initiate. It cannot be logical for an 8000 man alliance to pay vastly less to start the same war as a 50 man corp. It makes absolutely no sense.


Example of why this is a problem:

A large entity wardecs a small empire corp, and destroys their highsec research POS in a prime location, and replaces with their own tower. The wardec costs them almost nothing.

A week later, the small corp decides to try taking the tower back. But they have to pay 500m, vastly more than the larger entity paid to wardec them, for the same war. This is blatantly and wildly biased in favour of the larger entity. It's not a question of being able to afford it, it's a basic question of common sense and fairness.


EDIT: A common response is 'pay more for moar targetz lulz'. This is a fatally flawed argument:

1) Large 0.0 entities don't hang out much in highsec - so you're not paying for more targets. You'll get more targets griefing a mid-sized empire mining corp for a lot less money if all you care about are number of targets. But that brings us nicely onto...

2) War declarations are used for a wide range of reasons - to destroy highsec POS, to avoid security hits in lowsec, for revenge, etc. Assuming the same reason for everyone ('lulz they just want moar targets') is lazy and, in many cases, simply wrong.

3) The same war should not be vastly cheaper for a larger entity to initiate. That is quite obviously ludicrous.
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-08-05 20:03:26 UTC
But you're part of the monocled elite, surely this is no big burden to such affluent people as yourselves.
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-08-05 20:03:33 UTC
You used to be able to dog pile on goons but they saw that fixed quickly.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-08-05 20:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Whipcrack
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
But you're part of the monocled elite, surely this is no big burden to such affluent people as yourselves.


even the monocled elite take exception to 1.5bn a week of war bills for deccing three alliances... it's insane

In fact it seems that unless the alliance is less than 150 members, it's always more expensive than the old system... what's the point?
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-08-05 20:10:54 UTC
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-08-05 20:14:26 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll
Shukuzen Kiraa
F4G Wild Weasel
#7 - 2012-08-05 20:15:03 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll


So bring the fight to them instead of being lazy and waiting for them to wander into high sec.
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-08-05 20:15:57 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll


Because there totally aren't these things called alts, right?
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2012-08-05 20:17:07 UTC
Had to check the date to see if this was a necro ...

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-08-05 20:21:00 UTC
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll


So bring the fight to them instead of being lazy and waiting for them to wander into high sec.


would you like my 5 man corp to go capture their stations?

war declarations exist to provide fighting in empire, that is the point of them - they are nothing to do with 0.0 territorial war

the point I am making is that the new wardec system seems to make declaring war on alliances vastly more expensive than it was previously - why is that necessary? the only beneficiaries are large alliances, who won't give a toss about the cost when declaring war themselves, but are protected from wardecs from smaller entities - that seems bizarre, why was this change necessary? it seems a strange change for the worse
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-08-05 20:22:17 UTC
Want more targets? Pay more...
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-08-05 20:22:39 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll


Because there totally aren't these things called alts, right?


yes there are, but that doesn't stop people using their mains - if you don't believe me go around the major trade hubs right now for yourself

anyway what is your point? that I should go reinforce their stations? I don't want to, I want to intercept them in empire... under the old wardec system that might have cost anything from 50m to a few hundred million... the new system is ridiculous
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-05 20:23:06 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
Want more targets? Pay more...


pay vastly more than the old system? why?

please explain why the change was necessary
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-05 20:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cadfael Maelgwyn
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
the point I am making is that the new wardec system seems to make declaring war on alliances vastly more expensive than it was previously - why is that necessary?


Because CCP got it into their heads that you should pay for the number of targets available to be attacked.

In my honest opinion, the cost should have been scaled on something else, other than just number of characters in a corp/alliance. All this does is promote artificial bloating of numbers as protection from wardecs.
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-08-05 20:27:40 UTC
Save 500m and make a trip to Deklein.

hello
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-08-05 20:27:51 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
the point I am making is that the new wardec system seems to make declaring war on alliances vastly more expensive than it was previously - why is that necessary?


Because CCP got it into their heads that you should pay for the number of targets available to be attacked.

In my honest opinion, the cost should have been scaled on something else, other than just number of characters in a corp/alliance. All this does is promote artificial bloating of numbers as protection from wardecs.


I was under the impression that most 0.0 alliances enjoyed empire wardecs from smaller entities, as it provided some fun, light-hearted empire fights away from 0.0 blobbage

it's a change that benefits no-one, apart from the massive renter alliances like solar citizens

it's not like the large alliances needed a helping hand against 5 man corps in empire
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#17 - 2012-08-05 20:30:57 UTC
What makes you think a 5-man scrub corporation should have the right to cheap wardecs against massive entities? 500m isn't exactly a lot of money these days anyway so if you are struggling to come up with a fee like that then I would suggest you have no business involving yourself in wardecs.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Demolishar
United Aggression
#18 - 2012-08-05 20:31:04 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:

even the monocled elite take exception to 1.5bn a week of war bills for deccing three alliances... it's insane

I



Any true monocleer would easily pay that cost. I make more than that DAILY.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-08-05 20:32:25 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
Want more targets? Pay more...


pay vastly more than the old system? why?

please explain why the change was necessary


I dunno, to add depth? If you want to dec a large alliance you'll need to resources to do it?

At the end of the day if you want to attack a nullsec alliance there's plenty of free alternatives to attacking them...
5n4keyes
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#20 - 2012-08-05 20:34:25 UTC
Simply mail all the diplos, and recruitment officers that your better than them at PVP, and they wouldnt dare come to empire, and wait for them to war dec you ?
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