Player Features and Ideas Discussion

...

So let me get this straight. You tackled a T2 cruiser with a T1 frigate and are complaining because you couldn't kill it? I certainly hope you couldn't kill it.

Oh, I read the second part, which was pure theory craft and not actual experience. I'm not saying ASBs are perfect in their current configuration, but I definitely think they are a great addition to the game with a little more tweaking.

You had a better chance with the ASB than you would have done with a medium shield booster. If his friends hadn't arrived in time that vaga would have ended up with a very embarrasing lossmail, whereas on a non-ancillary he could tank you forever, neut or not. In fact the neut would probably end up hurting you more than him. I do agree that ASBs are a bit more powerful than they need to be, but they have fair limitations and a good reason to exist- active shield tanking was very rare in PVP before because it relies very heavily on midslots, whereas an active armor tank can be improved almost as much from mids and rigs as it can from lows

well, a tackled, passive vaga which lost its drones could get worn down by a rifter over time.
but with buddies to back the vaga up, no chance.

regarding the dual asb merlin the op suggested: its either totally gimped in the weapons department or is dual small asb, which could only tank decently, when they both get used at the same time. which brings up the reload problem again.

The thing is, this crap boosts more shield HP till it goes reloading than Shield extenders provide, and if you happen to survive duing these 60 seconds you gonna receive extra benefits. That's what is really broken here.

Its paying off should be balanced around having to work for 2 cycles.

Quite frankly, I'm appalled at the two quotes above,

And I VEHEMENTLY disagree with them.....

BIGGER does NOT mean BETTER.....

Using frigate hulls, I've personally solo'd drakes, hurricanes, vagabonds, ravens, rapiers, arazu's, and many others. Captain Nares did it exactly right, he successfully got under a vaga's guns, declawed the drones, and absolutely, 1000% deserves the vaga killmail (assuming he had time to kill it before backup arrives). Anyone that thinks that just because a Vaga's a t2 cruiser that it should win against a rifter need to find another game... because that's not how eve works.... Bigger ships have weaknesses (tracking), which can and SHOULD be exploited by other (smaller) ships.

Back on topic now, the ASB's need some balancing IMO.... The idea that an ASB vaga was able to survive for 5ish minutes, and then was "rescued" by his friends is very much acceptable in my opinion. Some active tanks run permanently, and you'd never destroy them in a frigate. Under this situation, it becomes a race of "who can get backup," which is totally reasonable. That being said, the ASB's make solo pvp much harder, as the backup race is becoming the norm for determining the outcome of a fight, which is NOT good for the game.

Personally, I'd like ASB's limited to 1 per ship (like DCU's), and I'd like the charge within an ASB to matter... i.e... bigger charges give full boost amount, and smaller charges don't. This will encourage the use of larger charges, which halves the number of "reloads" an asb ship has!

So a frig should be able to kill everything from a BC down? Does this mean a T1 cruiser.. say a Rupture should be able to kill a Maelstrom? Now I realize the wording is poor there because a poorly flown BS against a superbly flown cruiser should result in the cruiser winning, but given equal ability should the cruiser have a chance against the BS? How about a BS being able to solo a Dread? Can a Dread solo a Super?

The problem with your theory is that Bigger is Better in almost every case in EVE. Sure a frig could get lucky against a cruiser, but I can not agree that the reason a frig was unable to kill a T2 cruiser is because an ASB is OP.

The OP tried to blame the ASB for his loss, then he theorycrafts a hypothetical fight and once again loses without ever actually providing any data to back up his claim. The truth is he was in an uneven fight to begin with and ASB or not he had very little chance of winning. He needs to get someone to actually fight him in multiple situations with at least a dozen fights per build and then post his results. Otherwise his post is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Dreads ARE vulnerable to BS's, BS's ARE vulnerable to cruisers, and cruisers ARE vulnerable to frigates. With the except for the dreads, which just aren't out & about enough to have this actually happen, I have personally accomplished many of the scenarios you listed. I'll admit rat agro played an important role in many of the fits and deaths, as well as the fits of the ships that I caught. I've caught arty maelstroms with cruisers and slowly killed them.... I've caught hurricanes and vagabond and drakes and slowly killed them too. You post as if we're comparing an "optimally fit maelstrom" vs an "optimally fit rupture", and use that as a barometer for seeing who should win.... That's just wrong, and not what happens. The standard scenario is more like a ratting maelstrom get's caught in a belt/anomaly, or a Fleet Alpha Maelstrom is caught coming back from a CTA. In those cases, the maelstrom dies horribly, as it should. Based on my experiences killing vaga's in frigates, Vaga pilots often think they are this super anti-frigate platform and do very moronic things. Any Vaga pilot that managed to be caught away from a gate, at zero, by a frigate, probably did something wrong. And when that frigate successfully declawed its drones and maintains an orbited under it's guns, that vaga should die far more often than not, and it typically does....

Now, I don't know how much of a role the ASB played in the survival of the Vaga either. I clearly stated it's acceptable that a vaga surviving against a lone rifter long enough for backup to arrive is not indicative of a broken ASB. I've missed out on plenty of drake, cane, raven, and even thanny killmails because, despite successfully neutralizing them, I was unable to break their tanks. In my experience, a buffer vaga would typically die within a twoish minutes. As I mentioned, ASB's have the ability to extend a fight much longer than the before, and this makes many would-be-solo engagements become a "who-has-quicker-backup" type engagements. A small shift is alright... a big shift is not... and currently I think the ASB shifts it too much.

220's are not designed to hit close orbiting frigates.... They do a good job when you can web the frigate, when you can keep at range on the frigate, and/or when their hull has a tracking bonus. The 220 fit vaga is a great anti-frigate platform, because:

1.) It is fast, so frigates typically have to chase it, which means they are easy to track.
2.) It has an enormous boost to the range of it's guns. A 50% increase to the falloff of projectiles is huge....
3.) It can fit a medium neut in it's utility high, which severely hinder's any chasing frigates.
4.) It has a full set of light drones, which do significant damage to frigates.

To beat a vaga in a frigate is VERY SIMPLE. You fit a nos to counter the neut, you ONLY start the engagement when near zero so you can immediately scram it and orbit under it's non-tracking bonused guns, you declaw it's drones, and profit!!!

A good Vaga pilot won't put themselves at zero on a frigate....
A good frigate pilot won't chase a Vaga....

But eve is full of bad pilots that do both of the above. The loser of a solo engagement is typically determined by the bad pilot. ASB's don't change this!! What ASB's do, is they extend the engagement length, thereby allowing backup to alter the fight's outcome.