Intergalactic Summit

You know that every capsule is constantly traced by CONCORD. They can follow every of their smallest acts in space in real time, and react accordingly in less than a dozen of seconds. You may also know this is not the case for regular spaceships, that are far more numerous than capsuleers, and also using different navigation networks.

People constantly stating that CONCORD is not doing its job are delusionned, especially concerning capsuleer regulation. You also just have to work for CONCORD agents to understand that.



It is actually quite obvious. Most of the conservative amarrians consider themselves superior because its written in Scriptures that the Amarr are the Chosen Ones, which can either point to culture or beliefs, or either point to the race itself. Which means :

- The Amarr are superior because of their culture or beliefs.

Or

- The Amarr are superior because of their race or birth.

A lot consider the latter to be truth.

If you were, they wouldn't be able to retreat anywhere, Cpt. Sadik. Your success in dealing with this is as well limited.


Really, your argument is quite flawed. You simply claim that the latter is the case, without either giving evidence that most hAmarr claim that it's their race that makes them superior or at least showing in a compelling way how it is derivable from the parts of Scripture you refer to. And I strongly doubt that it is derivable from the Scriptures, your claim that it is notwithstanding. I'd claim that only someone without reading comprehension can think that the passage can be understood as pointing to race.

Well, it's not a possibility of exegesis, it is a possibility of eisegesis. True: One can read into the scriptures what one wants to read, but that's not how you do read them right. And I still would strongly doubt that the statement and claim that a lot of Amarrians truely believe that their race gives them superiority is true. Your statement is a popular one, especially outside the Empire, but I still am convinced it's outright wrong.

And even if 'a lot' true Amarrians have difficulties to accept Ni Kunni, Ealurians and Kahnid, even Udorians as equals, that does in no way mean that they have problems of doing so because they don't fulfill the biological criterion of being part of the Amarrian race.

It's simply a fallacy to claim that because a group claims superiority and this group can be defined as a race that they have to claim this superiority based on race. It's a non sequitur.

Cpt. Sadik,

your enthusiasm is heartening, but your understanding is lacking.

I don't deny that we Amarr claim superiority, nor do I deny the superiority of the Amarr. This would be quite dumb a thing to do, given you're a competent speaker of the Amarrian tongue and know what Amarr means. The Tetrimon, by the way are considered to be heretics, ...

Truth is though, that neither the claim of Amarrian superiority in general, nor of the superiority of the Amarrian race are based in race, they're not racist ideology. The Amarrian superiority is based in the relationship that the Amarr (and - if you will - therefore the Amarrian race) share with God.

This can be categorized as ethnocentrism or culturalism or probably some other kinds of -isms, but it's certainly not racism, that is the doctrine that certain biological traits that are found in a certain race constitute its supremacy. A special relationship with God isn't a biological trait. Therefore, I'm opposing people who are claiming that the Amarr are racists. Call us ethnocentrists and I'll concede that, but as I said where this discussion started - Mr. Ixiris is as much ethnocentric as your usual Amarr or Gallente and as much is probably true in the case of your usual Minmatar and Caldari.

And indeed, what seems to bug you is the sense of mission we share with the Gallente (though in entirely different forms) and that the Caldari seem to lack in compairsion. You Minmatar seem to have your mission as well, though, for most Matari don't seem to agree with you that slavery wouldn't be of your concern, if Matari weren't involved.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Well, if you want to do it all proper and according to etiquette, you'd go with Templar, the title I hold within my corporation, but Captain is as good as that as well. What'd also go is Ms. Mithra, Lady Mithra though is something that doesn't really fly for me, it's a title that should in regard to Amarr be reserved to those that are really nobles.


Again, here I am compelled to disagree - the Amarrian ethnicity isn't claiming to rule all of it. Most of it, true, but not all of it. The Amarr - and I'd say here it should be explicitly understood as >God's chosen people< - are the one's that can lay claim on ruling "the worlds of the Heavens". Let's have a look at the passage that you quoted as being relevant.

The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

This gives a clear hierarchy:. God stands above the Sefrim, the Sefrim above the Amarr. All things though, are under God: So are the Amarr. The Amarr don't rule God, nor do they rule the Sefrim: " Yet all under Heaven serve Me; So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens." So shall Amarr rule: As one who serves the Lord.
The claim to 'rule all of it' is therefore a heretic one, one that admittedly rose time and again within Amarr society and led to the expulsion of heretic cults or them being driven into hiding more than once.


And there is one word that changes a lot: "simply". This word doesn't belong there, if you want to deal with the Amarr fairly. It's not quite simple to consider someone as the Udorians of the house Tash-Murkon as "inferior" based on their race. There's a lot of elaborated arguments going on there in the background, being processed by hordes of theologians - not only those of the Theology Council, but also those serving different houses - and being debated mainly behind closed doors.
The arguments aren't quite the ones you'd expect from a racist:

We have traits x, y, z those constitute race A's superiority, race U lacks x, y, z therefore A is superior to U.

No. It's not as simple as that, especially as biologically, there is barely a difference noticeable.

The Argument rather is in a very condensed form: If anyone is superior, it's because they share in a special relationship with God. Relationships grow deeper with time. The special relationship with God grows similarly as well from generation to generation. Amarr share the longer relationship with God than the Udorians do. Therefore, the Amarr are superior.

Then, there are certain problems with that argument, and there's a lot of back-room debate about it, as I already said. Still, it's not racist.


Racism isn't just the belief that your race is superior to other races, it's the belief that this superiority is inherent in your race. And this is indeed a problem for every true Amarr, as all true Amarr would claim that superiority isn't something that is simply inherent in biological systems: It has to be earned and given by the Lord.
The most racist a true Amarr can get without starting to be a heretic is that the Amarrian race is, by it's biological nature, the one that's been best prepared to act in such a way.
Also, if you're a racist you subscribe to a biologistic worldview: That is, superior races simply do subjugate less fortunate ones, this is how their superiority shows. Their success in subjugating others is the measurement of their superiority. You see exactly that happening with many Sani Sabik.


Well, so you say your free Matari people behave just as they were conditioned to act by negative reinforcement? - That said, those that enjoy the thought of true Amarr enslaving true Amarr may take great joy in the fact that if one understands 'true Amarr' as they do, this is happening quite more often as they might think.

Those are pretty bold words from someone who just missed being returned to his constituent atoms. The only thing that saved you arrogant bastards and your throne worlds from being turned into smoldering slag was the fact that your zombie Empress managed to steal some ancient technology. Period. Your mighty "god ordained" golden fleet was either destroyed or chasing their tails halfway across the galaxy.

Yeah, we're just wayward "heathens" who under your noses built and deployed one of the largest fleets of warships ever seen in New Eden. That fleet neutralized CONCORD and was well on its way to Amarr Prime, virtually unopposed. You got lucky, slaver.

I have an idea; less words and more action. I'm sick of listening to your crap. If you're so powerful and your cause so right, prove it. Come and "reclaim" us. You would probably defeat us but, the cost to do so would so weaken you that it would make the Empire ripe for invasion by the Federation or State.

Is that a price you cowards are willing to pay?

Well, your nagging suspicion might be true: 'It' seemed to me to at least refer to all of creation or even everything that is. If it's merely referring to the material world, then you're right I think, though with the caveat that this presupposes the existence of a supernal world.


I ask because I have trouble with calling people, who are to that degree at the mercy of their most base learning processes and exact so little control over these, free. Don't get me wrong, they're integral and important parts of learning, but if you're free, you're supposed to have control over these, in my opinion.

You're quite right, of course, Sister. I normally don't respond to the blathering of Amarrian racists but, this pilot's statements were so insanely provocative that I felt compelled to speak.

Someone told me once that my passions would be my undoing. I'm trying not to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy but sometimes emotions get the better of me. I'll now withdraw from this discussion.

Thing is, I hope they've other (good?) reasons aside negative reinforcement (which, as I recall isn't heritable). And I don't see that I'm falling for a black and white kind of fallacy here. It's just that I'd call someone more free the less he's determined by conditioning alone and the more he's able to actively shape his own life through his faculty of reason. I think negative reinforcement isn't a good explanation and an even worse justification for why the Minmatar do as they do. It's certainly has it's part, but to simply say: "You conditioned us by negative reinforcement." ... It reminds me too much of "Look what you made me do!".

There are plenty of good reasons to despise slavery, and they've been repeated rather a lot on these forums. I do not like slavery as a practice, but I do not care what the Amarr do within their borders. It's a question of priorities in a sense.

No, it's taught. Like most cultural ideas. Why would it need to be inheritable?

Yes, I'd agree that even the free Minmatar are still working on getting rid of the mental shackles the Amarr put on us.

What exactly is your point? Or is this some kind of petty sniping you are trying? You surely are better than that?

Who used it as a "justification"? I'm watching the situation and try to figure out why it is as it is. It would do the Amarr good to look at their actions and see if they have the desired consequences - because if the desired consequence is to bring people closer to god, they have failed rather drastically and achieved in no small parts the exact opposite. It might be a good idea to try and change your approach if it fails to achieve the goals.

This little side discussion started when you noted that "the Minmatar have a mission" (that they feel they need to eradicate slavery as a whole; mostly expressed by the Ushra'Khan I might add) - I agreed that it seems that way. I then pointed out where I believe that comes from and that I do believe that it's not as strong or widespread as you seem to think.

That is, I believe that while many Minmatar say they despise slavery in general, what we really want is different. If all of our people would be turned into prisoners overnight (with the best treatment!), they'd not be slaves anymore, but we'd still want them freed. Likewise, I do believe that, should our people be freed and returned to us, most Minmatar would not really care about the remaining Amarrian slaves in Amarr space. (Most, not all.)

This belief gives me hope that there still is a chance for peace in the cluster. My worry is that with every passing day, the hatred grows, and hate is a strong emotion. At some point, simply returning our people will not suffice anymore for peace - and that is, again, an observation, not a choice of mine. I do not know when that day comes, I do believe it's not here already, but I fear it is approaching. And I would really, really like to avoid that day.

Try to re-think why you are discussing this the way you are. I feel you have some motives that are thoroughly beneath you, Lady Mithra.