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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#401 - 2012-08-05 06:45:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.


If tanky mining ship role is useless why would you give it to any ship?
Who said you should be able to gank mining ships profitably? Especially when that profit would be always the same, not chance based like it's with haulers.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#402 - 2012-08-05 06:49:50 UTC
I normally don't find myself in agreement with you very often Jorma.... but that is a very good point. +1 ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Pipa Porto
#403 - 2012-08-05 07:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.


If tanky mining ship role is useless why would you give it to any ship?
Who said you should be able to gank mining ships profitably? Especially when that profit would be always the same, not chance based like it's with haulers.


It's not useless. The Skiff is only useless because the buffs to the Hulk and Mack have made it irrelevant.

The Miners said we should be able to gank their mining ships profitably by fitting their ships to be profitable to gank. The profit is chance based, because there is the (remote, I know, but that's not our fault) chance that the Miners might tank their ship.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#404 - 2012-08-05 07:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
It's not useless. The Skiff is only useless because the buffs to the Hulk and Mack have made it irrelevant.


Hulk is meant for fleet ops. No need for tank modules, because Basi/Scimi can tank over 9000.

"Bu... Bu... But I want to gank mining ships with noob ship" Lol
Pipa Porto
#405 - 2012-08-05 08:21:51 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
It's not useless. The Skiff is only useless because the buffs to the Hulk and Mack have made it irrelevant.


Hulk is meant for fleet ops. No need for tank modules, because Basi/Scimi can tank over 9000.

"Bu... Bu... But I want to gank mining ships with noob ship" Lol


Good try. Never said any of that besides that the Hulk is meant for fleet ops.

If you've decided that being in a fleet op means you can't fit tank modules, I can't help you.

As for the newb ship comment, since it's in quotation marks, Link where I said that. Or stop lying.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#406 - 2012-08-05 08:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
As for the newb ship comment, since it's in quotation marks, Link where I said that. Or stop lying.


There ya go.

Pipa Porto wrote:
It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably.


...
Btw, why you nullbears care about profit in highsec so much when you can profit way more in nullsec? Especially when it goes way up if you solo officers.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#407 - 2012-08-05 15:51:49 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
As for the newb ship comment, since it's in quotation marks, Link where I said that. Or stop lying.


There ya go.

Pipa Porto wrote:
It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably.


...
Btw, why you nullbears care about profit in highsec so much when you can profit way more in nullsec? Especially when it goes way up if you solo officers.


the are "greedy"

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#408 - 2012-08-05 18:30:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats.


This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk.

As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up.

[Hulk, Spider]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5


*facepalm*

no.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Pipa Porto
#409 - 2012-08-05 18:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
As for the newb ship comment, since it's in quotation marks, Link where I said that. Or stop lying.


There ya go.

Pipa Porto wrote:
It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably.


...
Btw, why you nullbears care about profit in highsec so much when you can profit way more in nullsec? Especially when it goes way up if you solo officers.


Where does that quote say anything about a noob ship?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#410 - 2012-08-05 18:43:57 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats.


This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk.

As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up.

[Hulk, Spider]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5


*facepalm*

no.


Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#411 - 2012-08-05 20:49:32 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats.


This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk.

As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up.

[Hulk, Spider]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5


*facepalm*

no.


Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).


that fitting is dumb, and not cap stable w/ strips

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Pipa Porto
#412 - 2012-08-05 21:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).


that fitting is dumb, and not cap stable w/ strips


How many rats deal omni damage? 4 Passive Hardeners will also work fine.

Also, the rigs are free to run CCCs.

The point of the fit is those light drones.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#413 - 2012-08-06 05:24:39 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
How many rats deal omni damage?


Your "tanked Hulk" will die to sleeper spawn in C1 grav.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#414 - 2012-08-06 05:37:12 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).


that fitting is dumb, and not cap stable w/ strips


How many rats deal omni damage? 4 Passive Hardeners will also work fine.

Also, the rigs are free to run CCCs.

The point of the fit is those light drones.



Again as i said before your ********. Tanking belt rats with a hulk or killing belt rats in null is pointless, you perma tank them, While you can get an expensive ass fit for a hulk including a deadspace shield booster everyone i know that mines in null has a belt tank toon that belt tanks with say a non mining ship. Go back to playing with PL and stop assuming you know anything about nullsec mining.
Pipa Porto
#415 - 2012-08-06 05:58:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
How many rats deal omni damage?


Your "tanked Hulk" will die to sleeper spawn in C1 grav.


Sleepers don't respawn once you kill them. If you're expecting a Hulk to do the initial clearance of a WH Grav site, I really can't help you.

Also, a fit for one purpose might not be great for another purpose.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#416 - 2012-08-06 05:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).


that fitting is dumb, and not cap stable w/ strips


How many rats deal omni damage? 4 Passive Hardeners will also work fine.

Also, the rigs are free to run CCCs.

The point of the fit is those light drones.



Again as i said before your ********. Tanking belt rats with a hulk or killing belt rats in null is pointless, you perma tank them, While you can get an expensive ass fit for a hulk including a deadspace shield booster everyone i know that mines in null has a belt tank toon that belt tanks with say a non mining ship. Go back to playing with PL and stop assuming you know anything about nullsec mining.


If you're using a belt tank (a waste of a character slot, but v0v), then why do you care about the Hulk's tank? And where does your comment on Hulks and MLUs fit in?

Not every buff benefits every pilot of a given ship.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#417 - 2012-08-06 06:28:21 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sleepers don't respawn once you kill them. If you're expecting a Hulk to do the initial clearance of a WH Grav site, I really can't help you.


Problem with your tank is that sleepers switch targets and prefer drones.

You claimed that your Hulk can tank all rats...
Pipa Porto
#418 - 2012-08-06 07:12:26 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sleepers don't respawn once you kill them. If you're expecting a Hulk to do the initial clearance of a WH Grav site, I really can't help you.


Problem with your tank is that sleepers switch targets and prefer drones.

You claimed that your Hulk can tank all rats...


No, I didn't. So stop lying.

Anyway, now we have a Miner upset that his Hulk can't tank Sleepers.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#419 - 2012-08-06 07:50:35 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Anyway, now we have a Miner upset that his Hulk can't tank Sleepers.


If you don't know how to tank sleepers with your Hulk you shouldn't be in w-space.
Pipa Porto
#420 - 2012-08-06 08:13:52 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Anyway, now we have a Miner upset that his Hulk can't tank Sleepers.


If you don't know how to tank sleepers with your Hulk you shouldn't be in w-space.


So you tank/clear the sleepers in your Hulk instead of doing what normal people do and kill them with a Drake or Cane before mining?

Stop Lying.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto