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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#381 - 2012-08-04 10:54:29 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
To Help out:

EM EHP: 48,867 EHP
Therm: 56,334 EHP
Kin: 41387 EHP
EXP: 48,878 EHP

Doing damage patterns armed with that is trivial. Just a weighted average. By the way, is that Heated?

No, not overheated, though as I described I had a siege warfare booster (Tengu of course) and running an armor T1 passive resist link. I was too lazy to get out my primary booster, as he wasn't in his boosting ship on SiSi, not that a bit of armor from the T2 link would have made much difference.

Pipa Porto wrote:
Gives 48860 EHP against Void.

Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.

I think the ships are pretty much what CCP intended, and not what I hoped for. Personally, I don't see a reason to use anything but a Hulk in my fleet.

I'm still hoping I'm missing something, hence my continued posting.

I'm especially peeved about the loss of the +2 w-stab on the Skiff. I think that was a huge mistake. It might have got miners into lowsec.
TroyMcRoy
Bud Spencer Fanboys
#382 - 2012-08-04 11:08:28 UTC
As i noticed the changes on the test server...this rebalance will be superb!

And guys, thanks for keeping us updated with detailed infos about each ship.
Dave Stark
#383 - 2012-08-04 11:11:59 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

I think the ships are pretty much what CCP intended, and not what I hoped for. Personally, I don't see a reason to use anything but a Hulk in my fleet.



that depends on how your fleet is set up. small fleet with an off grid orca? mackinaws are still the way to go.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#384 - 2012-08-04 12:43:50 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

I think the ships are pretty much what CCP intended, and not what I hoped for. Personally, I don't see a reason to use anything but a Hulk in my fleet.

I'm still hoping I'm missing something, hence my continued posting.

I'm especially peeved about the loss of the +2 w-stab on the Skiff. I think that was a huge mistake. It might have got miners into lowsec.


I'm pretty much onboard with your reasoning Tau ... I've still got a Mack and Skiff, so I'll play around with them ... and likely end up with the ships filling the same roles as they do now, with the exception that the Skiff may just get a regular Strip Miner...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Zack Cordell
d'Bastard Industries
#385 - 2012-08-04 12:55:50 UTC
OK, so I built some Ice Harvester Rigs last night on SiSi and took my max yield Ice Miner (with a Yeti IH-1005) and maxed out Orca support into the ice field and tried a variety of ships. So the grid below should give the max ice yield dependent on the number of MU's fitted to each ship. Note that I ignored the fact that I couldn't on-line all the strips so no guarantee its practical.

Hope it formats OK and its of some help.

Ship MU's Strips Hold Ore Hold Cycle Time (s) Blocks per hour Blocks to Fill Ore Bay Time to Fill Hold (Mins)
MacKinaw 0 2 350 31,250 134.32 53.60 31.00 34.70
MacKinaw 1 2 350 31,250 122.23 58.91 31.00 31.58
MacKinaw 2 2 350 31,250 111.23 64.73 31.00 28.73
MacKinaw 3 2 350 31,250 101.22 71.13 31.00 26.15
Hulk 0 3 350 7,500 169.68 63.65 7.00 9.90
Hulk 1 3 350 7,500 154.41 69.94 7.00 9.01
Hulk 2 3 350 7,500 140.51 76.86 7.00 8.20
Covetor 0 3 500 7,000 180.29 59.90 7.00 10.52
Covetor 1 3 500 7,000 164.06 65.83 7.00 9.57
Covetor 2 3 500 7,000 149.3 72.34 7.00 8.71
Skiff 0 1 350 17,500 67.16 53.60 17.00 9.51
Skiff 1 1 350 17,500 61.11 58.91 17.00 8.66
Skiff 2 1 350 17,500 55.61 64.74 17.00 7.88
Retreiver 0 2 350 28,125 141.39 50.92 28.00 32.99
Retreiver 1 2 350 28,125 128.66 55.96 28.00 30.02
Retreiver 2 2 350 28,125 117.08 61.50 28.00 27.32
Retreiver 3 2 350 28,125 106.55 67.57 28.00 24.86
Procurer 0 1 350 15,000 70.69 50.93 15.00 8.84
Procurer 1 1 350 15,000 64.33 55.96 15.00 8.04
Procurer 2 1 350 15,000 58.84 61.18 15.00 7.36
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2012-08-04 13:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.
Dave Stark
#387 - 2012-08-04 14:06:13 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.


a third role in itself is entirely redundant, to be honest. ccp are only shoehorning it in there because they have 3 ships to use.

when you mine all you do is shoot rocks, and haul ore. that's covered by the mack and the hulk quite adequately. we shouldn't have to have a third ship to avoid being blown up every time some one sneezes.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2012-08-04 15:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
They are certainly marching a direction.. I can't say I like the new non roles idea.. or as some people are claiming, roles that are only about the size of the hold and the tank. I was hoping for more cargo space..than 350 of whatever it is today. ...and they still haven't seeded the rigs for testing.. though the BPs are there. Still many of the changes I do like.

I really would like the 500 points back in the hulks ore bay. CCP shaved off 500 and made a "cargo hold" with that ...then they shrunk that to 300 and something, proving that the two bays are not tied together... so putting the 500 back in the ore hold really should not hurt anything.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#389 - 2012-08-04 21:14:23 UTC
With roles removed, this means that mercoxit is going to be a little more expensive to mine right? 3 * crystals being used on the hulk instead of the one on the skiff?

Also this has to make training the deep core mining skill a necessary safety feature. You know, for when you loose concentration and accidentally get a little close to that mercoxit rock you are shooting at. Or a fleet member unknowingly gets a little close to it ;P
Zak Lonestar
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#390 - 2012-08-04 23:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zak Lonestar
For people who dont have 30 million SP, at least you can undock in high sec and feel not totally naked.

---Low ---
MLUII
Micro K-Exhaust Core Augmentation

---Med----
Adaptive Invul Field I
Adaptive Invul Field I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

---High---
MSMII
MSMII
MSMII

---Rig---
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

---Drones---
ECMs x5

EHP (roughly) 17.9 with all skills at V. Figure closer to 16-16.5 with mediocre skills. Will run cap stable. Its not the best, it isnt meant to buy. Its meant to be what you fly, if you fly, until you can mount the best. Figure 700 DPS from a ganker and you can survive just a tick over 20 seconds. Should be enough if you dont venture out into low rated hi sec systems. Keep the drones out and the Invuls on and it should be a clear visual to any ganker that you arent an easy target.


Thoughts?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#391 - 2012-08-04 23:17:07 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
With roles removed, this means that mercoxit is going to be a little more expensive to mine right? 3 * crystals being used on the hulk instead of the one on the skiff?

Also this has to make training the deep core mining skill a necessary safety feature. You know, for when you loose concentration and accidentally get a little close to that mercoxit rock you are shooting at. Or a fleet member unknowingly gets a little close to it ;P


Well, you could continue to mine it in a skiff (using a single crystal)

Sure, you don't get the 60% crystal yield multiplier per level. But you do get a 200% yield multiplier on all strip miners.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Pipa Porto
#392 - 2012-08-04 23:58:20 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.


I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#393 - 2012-08-05 01:03:09 UTC
..and what about mining drones?

When you look at the amount they mine for the SP you put into them, it's laughable.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#394 - 2012-08-05 03:51:38 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.


I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.


total EHP isn't the only type of tanking

*cough*regen sustained tank*cough*0.0 belt rats*cough*

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Pipa Porto
#395 - 2012-08-05 03:56:02 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.


I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.


total EHP isn't the only type of tanking

*cough*regen sustained tank*cough*0.0 belt rats*cough*


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#396 - 2012-08-05 04:10:06 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.


If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too.

And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role.


I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.


total EHP isn't the only type of tanking

*cough*regen sustained tank*cough*0.0 belt rats*cough*


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Pipa Porto
#397 - 2012-08-05 04:35:57 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats.


This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk.

As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up.

[Hulk, Spider]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#398 - 2012-08-05 04:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetaomega333
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.



Go ahead and put a MLU mack or hulk in a belt in 0.0 and tell me how long you mine before it dies.


Quote:
This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk.

As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up.

[Hulk, Spider]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5


Im sorry you must be new to nullsec, you dont kill belt rats, you permatank them, any other way of dealing with them is a waste of time and m3.
Pipa Porto
#399 - 2012-08-05 04:58:04 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:


Im sorry you must be new to nullsec, you dont kill belt rats, you permatank them, any other way of dealing with them is a waste of time and m3.


I'm sorry, but killing them is a great way to not have to spend lowslots on tank modules. Also, spider tanking is perfectly effective in letting you permatank them.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#400 - 2012-08-05 05:13:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:


Im sorry you must be new to nullsec, you dont kill belt rats, you permatank them, any other way of dealing with them is a waste of time and m3.


I'm sorry, but killing them is a great way to not have to spend lowslots on tank modules. Also, spider tanking is perfectly effective in letting you permatank them.



You dont tank with a miner... ALmost every nullsec miner with more than one account has a toon that can or just does belt tank, from domis to prophs to geddons to drakes. It completely removes the need to even pay attention to or care about rats. Now come the patch we are going to be able to put a skiff in the belt and belt tank with that while still pulling some m3 which will be nice but means ill have to spend a bit to train up for the skiff. Aside from a cyno boat i dont see skiffs getting **** for use.